Every child is infinitely precious, and we ought to treat them that way.

Abortion and men: What’s a father to do?

Fatherhood-billboardIt’s no secret that men, as well as women, suffer from abortions. And a major cause of suffering for men is that they are all too often shut out when their wives or girlfriends decide to have an abortion. They are told it’s not their choice, not their body, and not their business. But people forget that it is their baby.

I’ve been involved, more than once, in situations where a baby’s father is trying to stop the mother from having an abortion. These dads often need advice, as they’re uncertain what to do. Do they have any legal options? Where can they suggest that their girlfriends or wives go to hear another opinion, talk through their thoughts, or hear more information? What are the facts about abortion and a baby’s development? After all, it certainly helps to know your facts when you’re trying to convince someone to make a different choice.

Here are a few options for fathers that I hope are helpful. This certainly isn’t a comprehensive list, but it’s a collection of various ideas that any guy can evaluate to see what might work best in his particular situation. While fathers sadly may not have the final say in whether or not their children live or die, they do have options.

1) Whatever else you do, SPEAK UP.

Some guys think they will be a better boyfriend or husband if they remain mostly quiet and let the girl take care of the situation. They may be personally opposed to abortion – and even express this point of view – but then remain on the sidelines. DON’T DO THIS. The baby is yours, too. And right now, you are one of the only people who can help to save your child’s life.

Having an abortion doesn’t save a relationship, like some people think it will. In fact, having an abortion often creates problems that didn’t exist before. It can introduce guilt, anger, and depression because now, you both participated in killing someone – and not just “someone,” but your own child. So don’t be quiet, and don’t give up.

Care about your wife or girlfriend – and help her find the support and resources she needs – but speak up for your baby, too. Don’t give your permission for abortion or help her get one. Despite what society tells you, you do have a right to say what you believe and to stand up for it. Oh, and one more thing – being neutral never helped anyone. Take a stand for life, and be the man you were meant to be.

Photo credit:  Kelly B. (on Flickr)
Photo credit: Kelly B. (on Flickr)

2) Learn your facts.

Since you’re probably working to help your wife or girlfriend choose something other than abortion, it’s important to know what you’re talking about. You can also point her to these sources so she can read the truth and the facts for herself.

  • You can read up on the scientific, moral, and philosophical bases for defending human life.
  • You can learn a lot of information by going through this well-done and very interesting research paper that covers several aspects of abortion, including possible mental and physical health effects on women.
  • Here are ultrasound and other images, a heartbeat recording, and developmental info of unborn babies at various ages.
  • Accurate descriptions of what happens in two of the most common forms of abortion can be found here (suction abortion) and here (D&E). The Silent Scream is a YouTube video of an actual abortion that shows a baby trying to escape. Interestingly, the doctor who performed the abortion in this video quit after he saw the video because what he was actually doing bothered him so much.

The girl is moving in the womb; displays a heartbeat of 140 per minute; and is at times sucking her thumb. As the abortionist’s suction tip begins to invade the womb, the child rears and moves violently in an attempt to avoid the instrument. Her mouth is visibly open in a “silent scream.” The child’s heart rate speeds up dramatically (to 200 beats per minute) as she senses aggression. She moves violently away in a pathetic attempt to escape the instrument. The abortionist’s suction tip begins to rip the baby’s limbs from its body, ultimately leaving only her head in the uterus (too large to be pulled from the uterus in one piece). The abortionist attempts to crush her head with his forceps, allowing it to be removed. In an effort to “dehumanize” the procedure, the abortionist and anesthesiologist refer to the baby’s head as “number 1.” The abortionist crushes “number 1″ with the forceps and removes it from the uterus.

  • You can also find good videos, ads, and documentaries about abortion and help for pregnancy from many different organizations. You may want to share these with your wife or girlfriend.

3) Know where to get help and find support.

Pregnancy help centers are key right now. They can help your girlfriend or wife with a number of things: they can direct her to resources like medical help, prenatal vitamins, and baby supplies; they can give her facts about abortion – what happens and its effects – and fetal development; they can often provide free ultrasounds which are instrumental in helping women see that their unborn child is a baby; they can offer a listening ear and someone to talk through her situation with – someone who cares about her and believes in life for your child.

am-i-not-a-humanYou can locate a pregnancy center in your area by visiting Option Line’s or Pregnancy Line’s websites and entering your zip code. Image Clear Ultrasound or Save the Storks may also have a mobile ultrasound unit in your area – contact them to find out or ask if they will come where you are. They will provide a free ultrasound and someone helpful for your wife or girlfriend to talk to.

Many women get abortions when they feel overwhelmed or desperate. It’s important that they know that abortion doesn’t fix life’s situations. It’s not a “simple procedure,” that’s just done and in the past. Abortion presents its own problems and, often, these problems are much worse than what the woman was already experiencing. Ask your wife or girlfriend to read real stories from real women who have had abortions. This is so important.

More stories:

Embrace Grace, Hidden Choices, and Teen Mother Choices International are three amazing organizations that can help some women throughout their pregnancies. Embrace Grace also has a blog with stories of women who chose to keep their babies or give them to a family through adoption.

4) Check out your legal options.

I’ve already written briefly about a father’s legal options in two past articles: Fatherhood: the other casualty in the abortion war and I’m going to kill our baby: a father’s worst nightmare. While I cannot give specific legal advice on a case without knowing all the facts, I would recommend that any father look into the options of getting an injunction against an abortion. A pro-life attorney can provide advice and help with this when needed. Here’s what I told the last dad who asked me for advice:

[A]s a guy you can try to legally stop her from having an abortion. I’ll be honest and tell you that the law usually doesn’t side with dads, but I think it is always worth a try – that way you did everything in YOUR power to save your child. There are several legal organizations that may help you at no cost. You can contact Alliance Defending Freedom, the Thomas More Law Center, the ACLJ, Liberty Counsel, or the American Freedom Law Center, and see if they can help you try to get a restraining order against an abortion or give you other advice.

Life Legal Defense Foundation and The Foundation for Moral Law may be two other good options. And just because one attorney tells you no, doesn’t mean there’s not another one out there willing to help you. After all, the law won’t get changed by everyone sitting back and doing nothing to challenge it.

5) Take care of yourself.

When you try to prevent your wife or girlfriend from getting an abortion, you are being a good dad. Good dads stand up for their children and don’t stand by passively while someone kills their child. But if you do what’s in your power to stop an abortion, and your wife or girlfriend chooses one anyway, you need to find help and healing for yourself. (Also consider finding out a girl’s position on abortion before you date her next time.) Abortion greatly affects dads, too. Many pregnancy centers offer help and counseling for men. Silent No More and Rachel’s Vineyard also have resources for men. You are not alone, and don’t be ashamed to take care of yourself.

  • Bobby Rodriguez

    These guys are losers…abortion is her discretion…get over it

    • Amy

      Hard to imagine you’d tell a father to his face to “get over” the body of his dead child, much less calling him a loser. Until someone can conclusively and without any shadow of a doubt prove that abortion doesn’t kill a live human child, the father has every right to protect his children as best he can, regardless of the woman’s “discretion.”

      And please don’t tell us to “get over it.” That’s just rude, and I often discuss things with people who agree with me on nothing at all without resorting to name-calling.

      • ufo42

        You’re right, Bobby was being a tad rude, however he’s right, the men in most of these cases don’t give a crap about the baby or the woman, they just want to assert their power over her. If they were such great dads, why did these women choose to have an abortion rather than be locked into a necessity-based relationship with him or be forced to raise a child on her own? In my 65 years on this planet I’ve met many women some of whom have had abortions and all of whom have known and spoken to many other women. No one in all that time has ever taken abortion lightly or known anyone who did. Abortion is always fraught with guilt and “what if?” questions. That doesn’t negate the fact that sometimes it is still the best choice of a bunch of very bad options. Have a bit of compassion, Amy, for the real live fully born women whose circumstances are not as fortunate as yours. Have at least as much compassion for those women as for the clumps of cells which they have (in most cases tearfully) killed.

        • Bobby Rodriguez

          Well said. And I was not rude, just irreverent and impatient with stupidity.

      • katchwa

        Agree that it’s rude but you say:

        “Until someone can conclusively and without any shadow of a doubt prove
        that abortion doesn’t kill a live human child, the father has every
        right to protect his children.”

        Actually, until someone can conclusively and without any shadow of a doubt prove at what gestational point abortion DOES kill a live human child, the mother’s reproductive rights should not even be questioned.

        That’s the empirical way to look at this.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          If you honestly want to see the proof that abortion DOES kill a live human being at any point in the pregnancy, read this report: http://www.dakotavoice.com/Docs/South%20Dakota%20Abortion%20Task%20Force%20Report.pdf. It has amazing proof in it. I’d be very interested whether you had the same opinion after reading it…

          • katchwa

            That document is by a partisan group, and therefore completely invalid as proof of anything.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Uh…how is that by a partisan group? It’s by a task force appointed by a state legislature that was studying the facts before voting on a piece of legislation. It also quotes very respected doctors, geneticists, etc. I’d still suggest you read it before dismissing it…otherwise you’re purposely avoiding facts =)

          • katchwa

            South Dakota legislature is one that is trying to place obstacles between pregnant women and abortion services, so its safe to say they as the commissioning body of that report are partisan.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            You’re still entirely ignoring the credentials, expertise, and unbiased opinions of multiple people quoted in that report. But if you want to ignore the facts and just refuse to read them, I guess that’s your prerogative.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            because we all know politicians never lie (rolls eyes )

          • katchwa

            That document is by a partisan group and is therefore absolutely irrelevant as proof of anything.

          • ufo42

            This document is justification by God’s Own Party hacks in North Dakota for a draconian and probably unconstitutional anti-abortion law. It ignores the evidence of the real impact of Roe V Wade on women’s rights and on the rate of pregnancy related deaths of all kinds. If anyone is being pressured to have an abortion there are laws against unlawful confinement and assault already and they should be applied. The fact that many women did not understand that an abortion ended a human life is because it doesn’t. It ends a pregnancy. There is a difference regardless of all the propaganda to the contrary.

        • Julia

          No actually it doesn’t work that way. If I’m not sure if someone is standing behind that bush over their or not, but they might be, I have to ascertain that no one is standing their before I can shoot at that bush. I can’t just say ” Well, I hear talking over their, but it could be a parrot, and so since I can’t prove without a shade of doubt that it is a human being over their, I can assert my second amendment right to shoot a gun.”

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      These guys are actually amazing dads. They are taking a stand, despite what a lot of people tell them, and they are doing what they can to save their children from death. That’s the brave and right thing for any dad to do.

      • Bobby Rodriguez

        Losers. This is a non-story of idiots who have other emotional needs and a need for power. Their stupid plight finds resonance in your stupid anti-abortion narrative.

        • Kriss13

          We can
          easily understand why you have the picture of a dog in your profile…it is
          what better characterize you

          • Bobby Rodriguez

            But puppy is so cute!!!

      • asdfac

        But are these “amazing dads” willing to take on the responsibility of raising the child all by themselves if the woman doesn’t want to be a mother? If not, are they willing to spend the time, money, and effort researching adoption agencies, finding a willing adopting family, etc? Are they willing to foot the bill for prenatal care and any medial complications if the woman doesn’t have health insurance? Its more than just preventing an abortion–the woman is still the one who has to deal with the financial, societal, and emotional burdens of having a child. Unless the dad is willing to remove all those burdens from her, then no, he doesn’t deserve any choice in the matter. And if he isn’t willing to do those things, but he still opposes an abortion, why on earth isn’t he wearing a damn condom?

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          I think there are plenty of guys out there who would be willing to do exactly what you said. Most guys who don’t want their wife or girlfriend to have an abortion actually want to keep their child. I’m not sure why it’s hard for people who support abortion (not you, necessarily) to imagine that a dad might actually love his child, not just want to control a woman. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs that, in our nation, a mother can kill her child with zero say or permission from the dad, no matter how much care and support he’s willing to give. That’s why these dads need to know the options that they do have…

      • JezabelleDisreali

        If they are such amazing dads, why didn’t they discuss this kind of thing before having sex with the woman? An amazing dad and partner would discuss this (even if it was hard) and then left the relationship if needed. They’re aren’t amazing fathers, they are cowards who couldn’t communicate with potential mothers of their children.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          Agreed entirely that they should have had a discussion before hand. That would solve a LOT of these situations before they even occur. But, in this article, I’m talking to dads who are in a situation like this. Whatever they should have done or should do next time, they currently have an unborn child who’s about to be killed. They’re doing the best they can, given the circumstances, and need to understand their options to save their child. This child can’t be replaced, and dads need to know how to stand up for their child’s life.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            Repeat after me, until it is born it is a FETUS. A FETUS. And until it’s viable outside the woman, the dad really has no say in the woman and her health. Should she take his opinion into account? Yes, but in the end it’s her decision and choice to make.

            You’re so concerned about the fetus, and claim that horrible things happen to the mother is she has an abortion. But you never take into consideration what the mother would go through if she was forced to carry a fetus to term. But then, you never cared about the women in the first place and you certainly don’t trust them to make the right decision for their situation.

          • Julia

            Know what? A newborn baby can not survive on her own, a child till their about 9 or so probably could not survive on her own, an adult laid up in bed with a broken leg can not survive on her own.
            All these people need someone else to provide them with food, water, shelter, etc. Does that mean that the person taking care them can kill them if they so choose. Should we trust those people taking care of them to make the best possible decision, even if it means killing the person in their care?
            “Fetus” is just a term for the level of development of that human being like zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, adolescent, adult. For those first four stages, the human being is completely dependent on someone else, and sometimes in the last two stages of human development, as well.
            Dependency does not determine somebody’s worth as a person, or whether or not should be able to killed by the person taking care of them.

          • Guest

            people could survive on their own with a broken leg just saying its NOT a person who is in a coma

          • Guest

            hitler’s mom didn’t want him she would of had would to if it whern’t for the fact that wasn’t much of an option. sorry I had to troll

          • Pertinacia

            Like toddler and adolescent, the terms “embryo” and “fetus” do not refer
            to nonhumans but to humans at particular stages of development. Human
            beings inside the womb are smaller, less developed, and more dependent
            than human beings outside the womb. These are differences of degree, not
            differences of kind. We can all point to other people who are bigger,
            stronger, smarter, or less dependent than we are, but that doesn’t make
            our life any less human, any less valuable or any less deserving of protection.

    • Timmehh

      Abortion is supposed to be hard for the mother, right? I mean, I think both pro life and pro choice people can agree that many women who get abortions don’t take it lightly. So why is it so hard to imagine that the dad couldn’t just “get over it?” Especially when he has basically no say in the matter.

      • Bobby Rodriguez

        Cuz he is a loser. . .a big L on his forehead. If a guy resents a woman’s control over her body he has big mommy issues. And if he is such a great guy why did he knock her up in the first place?

        • http://amylovesbrian.briamy.com/ Barfaroni

          Do you happen to have an “L” tattooed to your forehead?

          • Bobby Rodriguez

            I am in no need of “l” on my forehead. . .I have no need for power over other’s sexual orfices like these retarded “dads.”

        • jess

          Seriously? Men and woman have sex and sometimes pregnancy results. Are you actually implying that getting a girl pregnant makes a man a bad guy?

      • Bobby Rodriguez

        And no is not necessarily “hard.” That is simply rhetoric.

  • Amy

    I really appreciate this! This is very practical for guys to know, especially with all the “men should stay out of abortion unless they’re encouraging it” stupid stuff floating around these days. As I said—Well done and very useful!

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      Thanks for your encouragement, Amy. I’m hoping that this info can help guys know where to turn for support and resources and to know what their options are to help save their children.

      • guest

        WHY are you lying in this article? You know men have NO legal right to stop a woman from getting a LEGAL abortion, it’s a fact that you couldn’t provide one case to prove your claim.

        “I would recommend that any father look into the options of getting a restraining order against an abortion.”

        yep BS.

        and a fetus is not a child/baby, but a parasite and science proves it.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          There’s no lies here. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote. I’ve added emphasis to help you:

          “While I cannot give specific legal advice on a case without knowing all the facts, I would recommend that any father LOOK INTO THE OPTIONS of getting a restraining order against an abortion. …

          [A]s a guy you can TRY to legally stop her from having an abortion. I’ll be honest and tell you that the law usually doesn’t side with dads, but I think it is always worth a TRY– that way you did everything in YOUR power to save your child. …

          After all, the law won’t get changed by everyone sitting back and doing nothing to challenge it.”

          Also, if you truly understood science, you would know that an unborn child cannot accurately be classified as a parasite: http://bioethicstoday.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/the-fetus-is-not-a-parasite-debunking-an-ethical-fallacy/.

          • jess

            The non-option, because it is not currently an option.

          • DancingMidgets

            Linking to WordPress, even if the name of the blog has fancy multisyllabic words, isn’t evidence and consequently, your claim remains unsupported.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            the medical definition of parasite according to merriam webster’s 2006 medical dictionary page 545 is as follows an organism living in or with or on another organism

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            sure sounds like a parasite to me

  • Andrew Orlovsky

    That’s why it important for men to choose wives with excellent moral values, not just someone who’s “hot” or “fun”.

    • Basset_Hound

      Or someone who is (nudge nudge wink wink) “easy”

    • katchwa

      Andrew, it is extremely sad for you that you have never met a woman with excellent moral values that is also hot. It is also pretty sad for your significant other should you have one.

      • Andrew Orlovsky

        Did you even read what I said MORON! I did not say women with morals were not beautiful. In fact, I said just the opposite. My point is that many men and women make the mistake of dating or marrying someone solely out of physical attraction and not shared moral values. While most of the time, its the women making the mistake, in a situation like this it would be the man as well. But from your last post and your other posts, on this thread, it seems you wouldn’t anything about morals.

  • Guest

    An excellent article! Thank you for writing this informative and supportive piece. I plan to make copies. I see many dads in the parking lot at the local abortion facility. How to get this vital information to them is problematic as there is a six foot high link fence separating us. Perhaps I can make a paper airplane and “fly” it across to them. There are so many barriers to getting good information into the hands of those who need it! Thanks for all your research and suggestions in this comprehensive article.

  • Faithkuz

    An excellent article! Thank you for writing this informative and supportive piece. I plan to make copies. I see many dads in the parking lot at the local abortion facility. How to get this vital information to them is problematic as there is a six foot high chain link fence separating us. Perhaps I can make a paper airplane and “fly” it across to them. There are so many barriers–physical and otherwise– to getting vital information into the hands of those at the facility who need it! Thanks for all your research and suggestions in this comprehensive article.

    • oh_snap

      Chainlink fence! That’s impressive, I’d like to see more of those.

  • ufo42

    Fatherhood begins when there is a baby. You’re the father of a baby, not a fetus. Women should not be coerced in either direction in this painful decision. If the woman doesn’t feel ready to be a mother, abortion is her legal choice. No one has the right to force another person (yes, folks, women, unlike corporations, really are persons) to put her life on hold for any reason. Just as a man can’t be compelled to donate a kidney against his will no matter how dire the need of the potential recipient, no woman should be compelled to loan the use of her body to a fetus against her will.

    • blair miller

      A fetus is a baby and a human being . Life begans at conception is a scientific fact,

      • ufo42

        Independent life which isn’t compelled to live inside the body of another life and which then has civil rights independently of its parent begins at birth, however that birth is achieved. If a woman wants to have her baby despite whatever hardships and scorn her bible thumping family and community want to throw at her, she is a hero and should be honored as such, but if she chooses to abort, that is her right as fundamental as the right not to be forced to give up a kidney (which also wouldn’t necessarily kill her and which also might save another life). Are you prepared to have one of your kidneys given to a stranger in desperate need of one? If not, STFU.

        • Julia

          A newborn baby is also totally dependent on someone else for everything.

          Pregnant mothers, like all other parents, have a duty to take care of their children. As their children develop more and more towards becoming self-sufficient adults, the parents duties become less and less, but a parent has no more right to kill their child when they are dependent on them, then when they are not.
          The preborn child is not “a stranger” but her parents child, and so has a right to her parents support.

          • Aryka Linn

            “A newborn baby is also totally dependent on someone else for everything.”

            But that someone can be anyone, it does not have to be one specific person. While a parent has no right to kill their child when they are dependent on them, they do have the right to place them for adoption if they feel unable or unwilling to care for them.

          • Juia

            Yes, they have the right to place them up for adoption. But they can’t just kill them or abandon them, that’s child abuse. They can only stop caring for them when they hand them over to some one else who can adequately care for them. Same thing with unborn babies. She can give her baby up for adoption as soon as some one else is able to care for them.
            If adoption is not an option in some areas are you okay with infanticide and extreme parental neglect that leads to death?

            What about 100 or so years ago when baby formula hadn’t been invented yet. A mother in a small isolated community where no one else has recently had a baby (i.e. they can’t breastfeed) decides she doesn’t want her baby. Should she be allowed to just let her baby starve? Or must she breastfeed her baby?

        • blah

          So then the criteria for being allowed to murder is whether the intended target has civil rights? Does that mean that ex-cons who are declared civilly dead are fair game??

      • oh_snap

        Define life please.

      • katchwa

        Not a scientific fact: actually it is a ‘debated scientific argument’.
        Which is to say that there are many different criteria to define ‘life’, and that no-one can prove their argument conclusively.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          Find a trusted medical or scientific textbook that doesn’t teach that a new, unique human life begins at fertilization. Not a book on theory or opinions, but an actual book on facts. Here’s a list of some of the textbooks that, for years, have held the scientifically sound view that at fertilization, a new human life is present: http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html.

          • katchwa

            My point still stands: there are many different criteria to define ‘life’.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Perhaps different theories, but theories are very different from actual, real, proven science. And science does indeed prove when life begins.

          • katchwa

            Again incorrect: because different scientists use different indicators to define ‘life’, science cannot be said to ‘have proved when life begins’. Because scientists do not agree on what that means, there is no ‘incontrivertible fact’.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            You still refuse to give any evidence to support your claims. I’ve given quite a bit to support mine. It’s easy to say whatever you want, but backing it up takes more effort. Please give a reliable source that states that science has not “proved when life begins.”

          • ufo42

            “Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote.”

            [England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

            The life of a zygote begins at conception. The life of a baby begins at birth. Those are the scientific facts drawn from your link.

            A zygote is a clump of cells with no nervous system, no brain, no heart, no personality. A bunch of human cells with the potential to grow into a baby and ultimately a doctor. The sooner in the process it is aborted, the less of a tragedy the abortion is. A woman has a chance to produce a zygote once every 27 days or so and a man can contribute to the production as often as he can con some naive woman into letting him have sex with her while she is in the right part of her cycle. Since the woman has to do all the heavy lifting in getting the zygote to the doctor stage, she deserves the right to decide when or if she wants to go through the whole process.

          • ufo42

            “Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote.”

            [England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

            The life of a zygote begins at conception. The life of a baby begins at birth. Those are the scientific facts drawn from your link.

            A zygote is a clump of cells with no nervous system, no brain, no heart, no personality. A bunch of human cells with the potential to grow into a baby and ultimately a doctor. The sooner in the process it is aborted, the less of a tragedy the abortion is. A woman has a chance to produce a zygote once every 27 days or so and a man can contribute to the production as often as he can con some naive woman into letting him have sex with her while she is in the right part of her cycle. Since the woman has to do all the heavy lifting in getting the zygote to the doctor stage, she deserves the right to decide when or if she wants to go through the whole process.

          • Pertinacia

            “The life of a zygote begins at conception. The life of a baby begins at birth”

            That’s like saying “the life of a toddler begins at one year after birth, the life of a teenager begins at 13 years after birth…” Lol.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            I’m afraid you haven’t read a medical text book or bio text book ever !

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            ummm thats just a bunch of quotes not actual textbooks they very well may be countering the quotes

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            why are their sources HORRIBLY outdated like 1975 outdated !you never ever should use scientific data from 1975 i wasn’t alive

      • JezabelleDisreali

        Really? Where is the peer-reviewed evidence to prove this?

      • ufo42

        A fetus is a parasitic life which depends on the mother’s life resources. That is the life that begins at conception. It is no more a human being than you big toe is a human being. It can if everything goes well (and 30% of the time it results in a spontaneous miscarriage anyway) develop into a human baby, and you can, if you like, consider it holy and refuse to abort it, but you cannot in good conscience dictate to another person about whose life circumstances you have no clue that she must be a hero and carry her fetus to term. We have moved past treating women like cattle and sheep and possessions of men. We have even abolished slavery. Let’s hold onto those moral and social achievements. Let’s not let religious bigotry drag us back to the dark ages.

        • Devin

          I believe that it should be perfectly legal to abort any child that cannot provide for itself and not have to live parasitically off of it’s “hosts”, the parents. What age do you think that should be? Seven? Eight? It’s inconvenient for the parents, and really the child couldn’t survive without the support from the parents, so it cannot be considered a human yet either. Where is the lawsuit for parents being forced to raised these parasites?

      • ufo42

        The life of the blastula begins at conception. That is a scientific fact. Eventually, if all goes well that turns into a fetus and eventually if all continues to go well, into a baby. A caterpillar is not a butterfly. An egg is not a chicken… that’s why we have different names for those things.

      • ufo42

        The life of the blastula begins at conception. That is a scientific fact. Eventually, if all goes well that turns into a fetus and eventually if all continues to go well, into a baby. A caterpillar is not a butterfly. An egg is not a chicken… that’s why we have different names for those things.

      • Mayone Heró René Laurent

        where’s your peer reviewed data what is alive and what is dead is alot more complex than one would think think virus and prions

    • Karen C

      would the statement “your the mother of a baby not a fetus” be true as well. I guess when i was pregnant with me girls, i wasn’t really a mother yet until i delivered them.

      • ufo42

        Yes, that’s right. You weren’t a mother until the baby took its first breath. You were a pregnant woman. 30% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions. Note the “pre-” part of the word. I guess “gnant” means “mother” in some language. :)

      • ufo42

        Yes, that’s right. You weren’t a mother until the baby took its first breath. You were a pregnant woman. 30% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions. Note the “pre-” part of the word. I guess “gnant” means “mother” in some language. :)

        • Julia

          Well 100% of human beings die, so maybe they are not people? In fact, elderly people die at a much higher rate than middle-aged adults, so does that make it OK to kill them. At what rate a class of people is dying has no bearing on whether or not it is OK to kill them.

          So you are saying that a full-term fetus a day after her due date just minutes away from traveling down the birth canal should be able to be killed at the discretion of her mother. But a mother killed her just delivered preemie baby, 2 months less developed than the baby in the other example, she should go to jail for the rest of her life. Good logic.

        • Julia

          P.S. If you so interested in the derivation of words – you should know that “fetus” is Latin for “young one”.

          • ufo42

            Yes, I know. We stopped speaking Latin quite a while ago, though, so what it means now is a potential baby at a specific stage in the gestation process. … the process of BECOMING a child. Anyway, even if the fetus really is a baby and is listening to Deepak Chopra tapes with full comprehension in the womb, that doesn’t give it the right to live off the mother’s body against the mother’s will any more than I have the right to demand that you give me your kidney if not getting it would mean my death.

            No one is telling you or any other woman that you or she should have an abortion. It should always be Plan C if all else fails and the woman has decided she needs to control her life and doesn’t have room in it at this time for a baby.

            What parts of the tradition of personal freedom and the concept of keeping the government out of private citizens’ business do you not understand? Are you, like the Islamist Taliban, against our freedoms?

          • Julia

            Do you think a child should be able to live a father’s sweat, toil, and hard work, against her father’s will? Or a newborn baby be able to live off her mother’s body (nursing, say no formula is available) and work against her mother’s will? A parent can always change to not wanting a child, at which point, the child is living off them against their will; if we tell them that no, you can’t kill your child or abandon your child where they will die, is that being like the Taliban?

            We make sex mean consent to parenthood for the father, – with no other say, he can be slapped with 18 years of child support, i.e. using his body to work and provide for his child (and rightly so); we do not allow him a second chance to kill his child and terminate his parenthood. So why do have a different standard for women – for them sex, doesn’t mean consent to parenthood, and if a child is conceived they can decide to kill their child and terminate their parenthood? Why the double standard?

            “a woman has decided she needs to control her life and doesn’t have room in it at this time for a baby.”

            So what if a mother of a six month old baby loses her job – now she feels she needs to control her life and doesn’t have room in it at this time for a baby, because now that baby has become a hardship. Can she kill that child or abandon the child where the child will not survive?

            “What parts of the tradition of personal freedom and the concept of keeping the government out of private citizens’ business do you not understand?”
            Personal freedom ends where someone else’s rights come into the picture. My right to swing my arm ends at your face. Would you apply this logic to child abuse or wife-beating? Would you say that the government should be kept out of private citizen’s business?
            No one has the right to kill their child; in fact, all parents have the responsibility to provide for the well-being of their children.

        • Karen C

          People stop trying to analyze words, because you sound foolish.

    • Tonia McBride

      Actually, fatherhood begins at conception. I know this is true because you can identify the father of a fetus from genetic testing at any point where you can find the fetus to test it. Paternity doesn’t get decided at birth. The man’s legal obligation is set the moment the sperm enters the egg. The death of the embryo/fetus/baby or a court order are the only ways to change the fact that he is a father.

  • ufo42

    The self-righteous folks in the anti-choice movement have proven time and again that they don’t give a damn about the eventual baby when they rail against abortion. Tonnes of statistics (some compiled by the CIA) show that in jurisdictions where abortions and birth control are freely available, the number of abortions per 100,000 women actually is significantly less than in jurisdictions where abortion (and almost always birth control and sex education) is either illegal or prohibitively difficult to access. Clearly, the religion based campaign against birth control and abortion is not about saving fetuses but against punishing “loose women” for disobeying “God’s laws” or “sinfully tempting innocent men into raping” them. No “pro-lifer” seems interested in or cares about which policies actually save lives and lead to fewer violations of “God’s laws”. It is all about punishment. The fact that bible thumping jurisdictions have the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases, divorce, wife abuse, child abuse, abortion, miscarriage and pregnancy related death and injury just gets swept under the rug along with all the horrendous “family values” stories in the Bible in which among other things, God mandates that rapists’ victims be forced to marry their rapists, that disobedient children be stoned to death along with non-virgin brides.

    • blair miller

      Your completely wrong were agants abortion, because it kills a life of an innocent child. How is it punishment to the mother, to deliver her baby, isn’t it punshment to the child by killing him/her.You pro aborts say that we don’t care about the woman were punishing her! Newsflash we do, do you know how many woman regrets there abortion, or feel guilty? Do you know how many storise I read, about the women feeling pressure about getting abortion or the woman having serious medical probelums because of abortion

      • ufo42

        No one is pro-abortion, nor are you pro-life. If you were, you would advocate policies which promote life and reduce the number of cases of pregnancy related deaths of all kinds by advocating for choice in all matters involving a person’s own body. Abortion is plan C when all else fails. A woman raised in a fundamentalist religious family who knows her father will literally kill her if he finds out she has been “sinning” by succumbing to her natural “God given” instinct to have sex has a choice of being beaten to death by her father or having an abortion. If abortion is illegal or inaccessible where she lives, she will use coat hangers, poisons, whatever is available to avoid being beaten to death by her saintly father. That kills the life of 2 innocent children. That is what your “pro-life” policy leads to as has been proven by the statistics of what happened before and after Roe v. Wade in the US and what happens in bible thumping hell-holes in the US and the middle east to this day. True, many women feel guilty and regret their abortions. So what? Many of us regret and feel guilty about our life choices. Many more women are relieved after an abortion and live to have several healthy, happy well cared for children later in their lives. No one undertakes an abortion lightly, but sometimes it is the least awful among the choices they have at the time. Men who pressure women into having an abortion against the woman’s will are just as evil as men who prevent women having an abortion and should be jailed for assault and/or unlawful confinement, whichever applies. Sex selection based forced abortions are particularly evil. No argument there. If a person does not have control over her own body, she is a slave. Are you pro-slavery?

        • Stormii

          Are you attacking religion or pro-lifers – oh wait, excuse me, “Anti-Choicers”. You’re doing a hell of a lot of assuming when it comes to it. No one’s pro-abortion, no one takes abortion lightly.

          Yeah…right.

          I wouldn’t put to much faith in your movement when it comes to that. So called “Feminist” make light of abortion constantly.

          Is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the fact that for some pro-lifers it’s not about the religious aspect but simply for the fact that it’s scientifically proven to kill a human being? Did that not cross your mind during your little tirade? Not everyone in the pro-life movement is a bible thumper – don’t believe me? Count me as example A.

          And about that last point. What do you think a fetus is? An bodiless spirit? A fetus has a body (I know, SHOCKER!) So when one has an abortion – which in most cases are with the approval of the patient, then that patient is invading someone else’s body. Who knew that sending someone spine first in a vacuum is apparently an invasion of their body? And guess what, that fetus had no control over what happen to its body.

          “If a person does not have control over her own body, she is a slave.” Save it for your bumper sticker.

          • ufo42

            I’m not attacking anyone. Most self proclaimed “pro-lifers” are good, honest, sincere people. I am attacking the faulty logic and false information which is informing their attitudes on an important civil rights issue. I would never advocate that anyone have an abortion. I would certainly suggest alternatives if any were viable, but if, after that, the woman still decided that the best choice for her at that time was to have an abortion, I would not stand in her way.

            I’ve been on this earth for over 65 years now and have met a lot of women and spoken to many who have known many others. No one has ever taken abortion lightly or reported anyone else who has.

            A clump of cells is not a baby. Just as no one is legally compelled to donate a kidney to an otherwise dying stranger, so no woman should be compelled to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Similarly, just as no one is legally required to refuse to donate a kidney, no woman is can be legally compelled to have an abortion. Your hangnail also has no control over its body even though, it too, with heroic technical measures could give rise to a baby.

            It is not that hard for me to wrap my head around any concept (except Loop Quantum Gravity and Linear Algebra and a few others :) ) but that doesn’t mean I agree. You’re right, there are some non-bible thumping folks who take an anti-choice attitude when it comes to abortion. While fully wrapping my head around that concept, I hope to change their minds. A clump of cells is not a baby. A woman is not a cow or a sheep. She has a human brain and is free to make human decisions, one of the most important of which is when or if to have a baby.

            A woman who decides to carry the product of a rape or any conception made under traumatic or unacceptable life circumstances to term is a hero. Heroism is not and should not be mandated by law. Just as kidney donation is a heroic act and should not be mandated by law.

          • Stormii

            Well I’ve been on this earth for much less time (the 15th of this month will be my 16th) and I’ve been on this site for a while. They constantly mock articles of Jezebel and others when they take lightly of abortion. In personal experience, I only know one person who has opened up about an abortion. She takes it lightly as well, even makes fun of it sometimes.

            And about the clump of cells argument. I don’t understand Liner Algebra either (Hey, we have something in common!) yet I must admit I’m pretty sharp in the biology spectrum of knowledge. You said your 65, so I’m pretty sure you went to school and know this but I’ll give you a run down anyways.

            Every living thing is made of cells. I think I just quoted my text there. It’s true, your made of cells, I’m made of cells, the people walking on the street are made of cells. Only thing that’ll make them different from a fetus or embryo would be the development and that fact that their wearing atoms (Clothes). You can say your table is nothing but a structure of atoms. While that’s entirely correct it’s also a table, it comes together to make something else entirely. Like a fetus, your completely right, it’s nothing more of cells. But so are we. Does that make us eligible to kill? I sure hope you say no to that :P

            At six weeks in a fetus you can hear brain waves, so no matter how small fetuses usually have that stuff down and a brain is growing rapidly at the seventh week. Pretty impressive for a clump of cells.

            You must remember that this child wasn’t placed in that womb from it’s own consciousness. It had no say in what happened. The woman, while probably didn’t get pregnant intentionally, she did engage in a known baby-making activity. Even with the best conception, there is always that chance. No matter how small and its something to think about before you get naked.

          • oh_snap

            1. some women are raped and therefore did not knowingly engage in “baby-making activity.”
            2. I think you meant contraception. If you are going to be condescending you should probably at least make sure you are using the correct words.
            3. One of the most important and yet forgotten arguments that occurred during Roe V Wade was whether a fetus could survive outside of the mother’s body. It cannot. You don’t call an egg a chicken, likewise a fetus is not a baby.

          • Guest

            But you do call what’s inside the egg a chick…

          • katchwa

            No, you call it a ‘yolk’.
            It does not become a ‘chick’ until it is viable.

          • guest

            Where’s your science textbook on that? What’s the point of “viability” for chicks? I think you’re pulling answers out of thin air on this one…

          • Stormii

            1. Thousands of abortions are preformed each day, calling all those from rape?
            2. Typo. It happens, get over it.
            3. Uhm, did I say baby? By the way, does this really matter? A toddler isn’t a teenager so does it make it okay to kill it? At the end of the day it’s the stage of development for a human.

          • Stormii

            *Performed, damn autocorrect.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            toddlers and teenagers are the same thing their obnoxious and and complain and are annoying :) XD and also people generally don’t care about typos unless u use a complety different word

          • Pertinacia

            “toddlers and teenagers are the same thing”

            So are fetuses and infants.

          • Anti-choicers are anti-woman

            Honey, in a few years when you are an adult and go out into the world away from your religious, controlled bubble, I hope that you realize that it is morally wrong to dictate what another woman does with her body.

            You can choose not to have an abortion yourself, but you DO NOT have the right to make that decision for another person. You won’t be able to understand this until you are older and have your own life experiences. Mind your own business.

          • Stormii

            Religious controlled bubble? I think I said this before, but I’m not one who is “anti-choice” because of religion. Question: What’s worse, killing someone or forcing them to continue on with a pregnancy?

          • ufo42

            oh! I know! Killing someone is worse! So what? Don’t we have other choices? How about not killing the pregnant woman and also not forcing her to kill herself by making an abortion which she feels she needs to continue her life — illegal?

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            in my eyes if they don’t have a function brainwave they arnt alive just saying

          • ufo42

            Yes we’re all made of cells, but would you mourn the loss of your toe as much as the loss of (say) your mother? Different configurations of cells have different significance. What about the placenta? That grows from the same fertilized egg as the fetus, but no one seems too concerned about throwing away that bunch of undeniably human cells.

            I don’t think it is ok to kill any actual living breathing humans. Even if such a human has killed others. The only times it is ok, IMHO to kill another breathing human is if they are in unsupportable pain and have no prospect of recovering or if they are in the act of killing another breathing human and there is no other way of stopping them. I hope you can agree with that. :) … but somehow I suspect you might not.

            As for your acquaintance who had an abortion, I suspect she may just have been putting a brave face on a terrible situation. Teens tend to do that, as you doubtless know from personal experience. I stand by my assertion that no one takes abortion lightly. Regardless of what you think about when life starts and what constitutes women’s inalienable civil rights, there is always at least a twinge of guilt and spoken or unspoken “what if” questions. Having to risk her life via an illegal abortion just makes a terrible situation that much worse and far too often kills a woman who might otherwise go on to make a significant contribution to society while raising and caring for her subsequent wanted and loved children.

            Where religion comes into it, is that most jurisdictions which make abortion illegal or inaccessible are dominated by bible thumpers or other religious nuts whose main interest is that every “slut” who has sex outside of marriage be appropriately punished for violating “God’s law”. This means they also restrict access to contraception and try their best to thwart any attempts to provide evidence based sex education to teens, preferring instead ignorance based sex miss-education also known as “abstinence only” sex education. This is why such jurisdictions have consistently higher rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, and abortions. The statistics are out there. Google them. You might be surprised. Anti-abortion is definitely not the same as pro-life. Even the name of the “pro-life” movement is a lie.

          • Stormii

            Speaking scientifically, I’d mourn my mother more because she’s a separate organism, not part of me. Just like I won’t mourn dead skin cells that I brush off. All of these are part of something greater – me. Like a fetus, it’s not a toe or an extension to it’s mother. It’s another organism entirely. Like the placenta – it’s part of the fetus but not the fetus. Non scientifically I’d mourn my mother because, well, she’s my mom!

            On the second part, I suspect you put breathing in there to illustrate that a fetus doesn’t breathe. What about newborns? With a newborn it be immediate or a few seconds for that child to start breathing however in those moments, no matter how short, would you be okay if the doctor just stabbed that baby before it taken it’s first breath?

            With the killing of someone whose killing me or another, in the effort to protect myself or them I will use any force necessary. This doesn’t apply to abortion though, considering that this person is doing something in it’s own consciousness while a fetus does not. A fetus is placed by other forces while a criminal has it’s own free will. And speaking of euthanasia, it’s a bit of a gray area for me. With it is the killing of a human yet at the same time it’s the same human who is making this decision unlike abortion when someone makes a decision another pays the consequence. So I don’t talk about it much since I know to little of the subject to form an opinion.

            She may, quite truthfully that never crossed my mind. However her causal nature and the fact that she doesn’t shy away from questions and sometimes encourages or brings it up leaves much doubt.

            Again your doing a lot of assuming when it comes to illegal abortions. Believe it or not, because the lack of availably, it may effect ones choice to have an abortion or not. I remember once reading in The Advocate about a women whose mother decided not to abortion, even though she was raped, because of the fact that she had to get inside a car blind-folded and go to this mysterious location. There were the desperate ones, but there also were those who looked the dingy ‘clinic’ and walked out but would have little issue entering a Planned Parenthood clinic.

            I think it’s damn shame that a person has to die for someone else to be worth while in life. I think that’s called human sacrifice. Maybe that the reason people get abortions so much, because it’s either childbirth and a horrible life OR an abortion and you become a such a success. I don’t know if you ever thought of this but maybe helping a single parent might be better than referring them to a abortion clinic. Saying enough times that your life is ruined, someone’s bound to believe it and think there is no other choice. By the way, what someone thinks of someone else shouldn’t determine their value. Being “wanted and loved” still doesn’t make them any different than a child that’s been aborted only difference is the opinion of them and the fact that there alive and other isn’t.

            I can’t justify the last part with much of response except for the fact that once again you are going on a religious tirade and your not so nice thoughts should to given to someone who cares and applies. Like Christians, religious people and/or God.

          • ufo42

            It is true that some women might decide to keep an unwanted pregnancy in areas where abortions are illegal. I’m not assuming that never happens. I have checked the statistics, though, and in places where abortion is legal and accessible, there are fewer abortions and pregnancy related deaths of all kinds. That is a fact. Look it up.

            If someone was thinking of getting an abortion, I would certainly not encourage that option if I thought there was another viable option for her. I agree, an abortion is a damn shame. It is not a crime, though. It is not murder. It is a woman exercising her right to control her own body. Her right to decide when or if to have a baby. I would never presume to tell a woman her life is ruined. That is what religious propaganda does to women. I’m sure you’ve run into it by now… the slut-shaming… the “nice girls don’t want sex” meme. Absolutely, helping a single woman is better than referring her to an abortion clinic, but if she can’t find the support she needs, legal abortion is better than suicide or infanticide when caring for the baby becomes too much of a burden…. or death when the medical condition which made the abortion a life-saving procedure takes its toll. Being wanted and loved makes a huge difference to a child’s mental and social development. There are some statistics which suggest that the drop in the violent crime rate (yes, violent crime rates have been dropping all around the world throughout the last 100 years and more sharply in the US 20 years after Roe V Wade) is in part due to fewer unwanted, neglected, abused children being born once abortion was made legal.

          • Stormii

            When people talk of maternal mortality, that includes unsafe abortions. Ireland has one of the lowest mortality rates and abortion is illegal there.

            I did notice that you say you don’t like abortion and is not “pro-abortion”, saying that implies that you think something is wrong with it. If it’s as simple as a woman exercising the right to control her own body, why don’t you celebrate it or encourage it?

            Yes, sadly, I’ve heard the slut shaming. While I hate to admit it, it’s all to prevalent in the Pro-life community. I hate when people mix their religion in with this topic at that point it becomes less about saving people and more about giving a sneaky sermon. Or when someone calls a girl going in an abortion clinic a whore. Like, that’s completely off topic. We’re supposed to be trying to save lives, not critiquing someone’s sex life.

            While I agree that having love in a child’s life will be beneficial, I think it’s wrong to kill those who are deemed “Unwanted”. My life shouldn’t hang on the balance of how someone will want me or not. My value, or others should have nothing to do with your opinion or others. If we go by how wanted and loved someone is, what’s going to stop that from going outside the womb? Can the same rule apply to a toddler or an homeless adult even?

            I hate to sound like a hippy here, but isn’t everyone, even those unborn loved or wanted by someone. Like this topic for example, what if a father wants that child and would provide a good home for it? You can’t just walk into a foster home and say because you’re unwanted I should have the right to kill you.

          • Guest

            dude you are a extremely big asshat you know that

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            at 6 weeks their neural tube is closing they WONT be able to hear, since they don’t have a working nevus system. and ps. I dont think they have ears at 7 weeks at all http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04050 since that dosn’t happen until week 18-19

      • I CHOOSE MY CHOICE

        Your atrocious mangling of the English language proves to me that you are not a reputable source to believe in matters of science and morality — or anything else, for that matter.

        Instead of rallying together to try and restrict the actions of others, why don’t you anti-choice folk band together to learn how to read and write properly (and maybe learn some non-religiously motivated science too boot)?

    • blair miller

      Also I do care about the child, I care about the child being allowed to be born and having a right live . Just as we do

      • ufo42

        What about when that life becomes a woman, who is raped by her father? Do you care about her then? … or only about the parasitic growth that her father left in her as a reminder of his absolute biblically ordained control of her life?

        • Basset_Hound

          We believe that woman should be provided with a safe haven where both she AND her child can be protected and helped. There are two crime victims here. Then the dad’s sorry butt should be thrown in jail and the key thrown away.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            But you want to the father to be able to stop the abortion and take the child. What happens when her rapist wants her to carry the fetus to term? What happens when he wants custody?

          • Basset_Hound

            “But you want to the father to be able to stop the abortion and take the child.”

            I didn’t say that, troll. Stop putting words in my snout.

            Lock him up in jail and strip away his parental rights. And you DO realize that rape accounts for less than 5% of all pregnancies, don’t you? The vast majority are the result of consensual sex.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            As a technical writer, you should be able to recognize the collective “you”.

            And you do realize that rape happens within relationships right? And that people call it “consensual sex”? If not, sit tight here’s a story for you. I was raped by a man I was in a relationship with. He told me that if I ever got pregnant he wanted to keep the child. I never did, but do you really think that he wouldn’t have used the mentioned “tips” to get me to carry it? Do you really think I should have tied myself to him with a child I didn’t want? Was it consensual? No. When I told my friend what was going on her words were “But you can’t be raped in a relationship”.

            It doesn’t matter why a woman wants an abortion, or even how the egg was fertilized. It’s her decision, not yours. And to suggest that a man force her, or pressure her, or block her options is morally and ethically reprehensible.

          • Basset_Hound

            Yup, I realize rape can happen within relationships, and it’s never the fault of the child.

          • ufo42

            I’m heartened to see that you don’t deny the reality of relationship rape and that you’re ok with the morning after pill and/or very early term abortion. Not all bible thumpers are so generous. Nevertheless, insisting on your civil rights is not exactly hurling insults. Accusing someone of murder or baby execution for having an abortion or proclaiming that abortion is only something irresponsible people do IS kinda hurling insults.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            Ethically superior certainly. Intellectually remains to be seen.

            My mental health has nothing to do with why I commented. The idea that a man is being encouraged to exert that much control over a woman and a body that is not his is abhorrent. This article makes suggestions as to how an abusive and controlling partner could do worse. Perhaps if people are told about how this is used to be control and abuse they won’t do it.

          • ufo42

            Yet you want to violate the rape victim’s right to live her life without having to spend 9 months supporting a growth that reminds her of her victimization. Just because you don’t want to exercise your civil rights in this matter does not give you the moral right to deny civil rights to other women. Obviously, the dad in such cases should be jailed, but why should the victim also be effectively jailed by having to put her life on hold while she gestates the criminal’s child?

          • Julia

            So what about this scenario: a woman, pregnant from rape, gives birth to her child and discovers that this child looks exactly like her rapist. There is no one who can/is willing to care for her child until a couple of months. She doesn’t want to spend months having to support this “growth that reminds her of her victimization” so she throws her child out the back door on a snowy day and her child freezes to death. Should what she did be legal, morally acceptable? Would disallowing her from doing this be denying her civil rights? Should her life be put on hold while she nurses, and raises this criminal’s child?

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            adoption

          • blair miller

            You do know most woman who were rape and got pregnate chose to have their baby right?

        • blair miller

          Its not a parasite its a human being, most abortions are noteven becauseof rape.

      • ufo42

        Did you read the whole post before replying? If you really want there to be fewer abortions, you should advocate for laws like those in the Scandinavian countries where abortion is legal and access to birth control and evidence based sex education is available to all. They have the lowest rates of abortion, STDs, and peri-natal deaths IN THE WORLD! I’m not making this up. Check the statistics. They are freely available through Google. Regardless of the laws, there will never be NO abortions. That is a sad fact. If I had my druthers, there would never be a need for an abortion, but that’s not the world we live in. We have a choice of setting up society so there are many, dangerous illegal abortions or few safe legal abortions. I know which option I prefer. Do you?

        • Faithkuz

          ufo42 (1) Interesting you should mention STDs–the philosophy you present has much to do with the huge increase in STDs here in the US, and the Gosnell and Deleware clinic expose the lack of sanitary conditions at abortion facilities that spreads STDs. These are not the only facilities to have such problems–legalizing abortion did not make it safe in any sense–do you know all the risks and harm women face?
          (2) We will always have crime, so should we no longer prosecute such harmful actions as robbery and murder as a result?
          (3) Legalizing abortion does send a message that it is a legitimate action, and women assume as well it must be safe. The rate of abortions has increased–in part because women assume legal makes it right.

          • ufo42

            1) Wrong. In areas where the pro-lifers are not able to poke their nose into others’ business, abortion clinics are just clinics and are a sanitary as any other. See above re STDs. Check out the statistics. You are wrong. Bible thumping, rabidly anti-abortion, anti-birth-control and “women are cattle” jurisdictions have higher rates of STDs than more civilized area. The truth is out there. Look it up instead of just rehashing anti-freedom bible thumping propaganda.

            2) Controlling your own body is not a crime, so abortion should not be and is not prosecuted in civilized countries. See my analogy with kidney donation. A clump of cells is not a baby. If left alone it will become one, but it needs the woman’s consent for that to happen. If the woman is forced to complete the pregnancy against her will, how is her status different from a that of a cow or a sheep?

            3) I agree. Legal abortion does send that message. It is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. The rate of abortions has not increased and no-one thinks that is a bad thing…. and it is part of the human right to control your own body.

          • Karen C

            sanitary? i guess you haven’t heard of kermit gosnell or the plenty of other clinics that have had violations recently.

          • ufo42

            No, but now that I’ve read about it, I see the problem. You are probably under the delusion that you live in a civilized country. In a civilized country, poor people aren’t forced to get abortions in backstreet “clinics” run by quacks. Hospitals and reputable clinics will do it. The people using Gosnell and others like him are victims of the GOP (God’s Own Party) war on women which has shut down so many abortion providers that women’s choices are severely curtailed. By doing that, the GOPs merry band of religious zealots are ensuring that abortions are done later in the term and under less than optimal conditions… part of ensuring that the “sinful sluts” who get themselves into unwanted pregnancies are punished for their violations of “God’s Law”.

          • Karen C

            in a civilized country women don’t get abortions!

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            because when you make abortions next to impossible you end up with that.

          • Karen C

            You’re right. Its not like these women had no other choice but to go there. Hey i guess thats what you get when you do ungodly things.

          • Karen C

            You’re right cause these women have no other option such as keeping the baby nor any other clinic to go to.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            they cant always afford that nobody wakes going hey i’m gunna have a abortiong today.

          • Karen C

            Actually people do. So you mean to say that people purposefully wait a long time to have an abortion?

        • Mayone Heró René Laurent

          her @blair miller puts my bad spelling to shame XD

  • blair miller

    I’m sick and tire d of people saying man should have no say ,because he ain’t carring the child . News flash its his baby to his sperm fertilised the egg. and he?she shares his Dna . The woman didn’t get pregnate by herself

    • ufo42

      The man kills millions of potential babies every time he ejaculates. He gets nothing but pleasure from the fertilization act. The woman gets to carry the fetus for 9 months during which her earning potential goes to zero for a lot of the time. In too many cases, she has the choice of aborting or starving herself and her fetus… and/or she bears the social stigma (which can be horrendous in bible thumping communities) of being an unwed mother. If she cannot control her own body she is a slave. Are you pro-slavery? When I got my then not yet wife pregnant, I never considered an abortion nor did she because I was there willing and able to support her and our baby and our relationship was pretty solid. How many cases like that result in a woman deciding she will just get an abortion anyway? Not too many, IMHO.

      • Basset_Hound

        “The woman gets to carry the fetus for 9 months during which her earning potential goes to zero”…

        I worked as a technical writer making as much as my husband for most of my first pregnancy. No one starved, and all of us managed quite nicely. Your posts are illogical gibberish. Maybe you should consider moving to a site arguing for the legalization of pot. You’d fit in nicely there,

        • ufo42

          Good for you! You had a pregnancy you wanted and the support you needed. No one is suggesting you should have had an abortion! All I am saying is that your experience is far from universal and having safe legal abortion as an option saves more lives than it kills. Most sexual encounters do not lead to a baby. Most pregnancies these days do. A clump of cells is not a baby just as your little finger (which could be cloned into a baby with current technology) is not you.

          • Basset_Hound

            What tripe. The child I carried was NOT a “clump of cells” but a separate, unique individual from the moment my egg cell fused with my husband’s sperm. The fact that I wanted to be pregnant, and had support does not change that one iota.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            Yes, the fetus is a clump of cells. Given that most abortions are obtained prior to 13 weeks, the fetus isn’t even viable outside the womb. And while your previous argument of a hang nail is already invalid because those cells are already dead, it is similar because outside the womb at 13 weeks the fetus will not become anything else or new.

            And your situation while perhaps ideal, is limited only to you. Many women, despite taking precautions do not want to be pregnant. Many do not have support. Your CHOICE was to carry the fetus to term and have a baby. Would you really hold woman who would make a different choice due to different conditions to your oh-so-perfect standards?

          • Basset_Hound

            So what if it’s “not viable outside the womb”? From the earliest stages there is still a beating heart and a functioning brain. The unborn child can process sensory information and feel pain.

            “Would you really hold woman who would make a different choice due to different conditions to your oh-so-perfect standards?”

            Yup. Sure would. If a woman has an infant she doesn’t wish to care for, her options are limited. She can place the child up for adoption, surrender it to foster care, or seek the help of a counselor and readjust her attitudes. She can’t neglect the child, abuse it or kill it. Why does an unborn child deserve any less protection because it is younger, smaller and at an earlier stage of development?

            And another thing, if you know you have “no support”, how about deciding not to have sex in the first place? Now THAT’S reproductive choice.

          • ufo42

            It takes quite a while for a beating heart and a nervous system to develop. Most abortions are, in fact, a clump of cells. Where abortions are legal and accessible, abortions of late stage fetuses where there is a functioning brain are very rare and usually involve a developmental issue which would kill the baby shortly after birth anyway or a threat to the woman like preclampsia which would kill her and the fetus unless the fetus is aborted. The cases of the woman in El Salvador who was almost murdered by that country’s draconian anti-abortion laws and the case of the non-catholic dentist in Ireland who was murdered by Ireland’s anti-abortion laws are just two of millions of avoidable tragedies which would not have happened in a civilized country with civilized abortion laws.

            As for deciding not to have sex, how realistic is that really? How well is “deciding not to have sex” by signing chastity pledges working for all those teen pregnant girls in bible thumping areas where the incidence of teen pregnancy is considerably higher than in more civilized areas where birth control and evidence based sex education are available?

          • Basset_Hound

            “It takes quite a while for a beating heart and a nervous system to develop”

            Wrong. By the time a woman realizes she is pregnant, the baby’s heart has already started to beat. Brain waves are detected a couple of weeks later. So yes, there’s a LOT more there, even from the initial stages than a “clump of cells”. Any woman who’s seen a sonogram knows that.

            The dentist in Ireland was killed by a rapidly progressing infection which very rarely affects pregnant woman. There is a great deal of debate as to whether or not an abortion would have accomplished anything as far as saving her life goes. In El Salvador the women with lupus was given an emergency c-section to treat her condition, and efforts were made to save both lives.

            “As for deciding not to have sex, how realistic is that really?”

            So what’s wrong with teaching girls to delay short term gratifications to focus on long term gains (like academics)? These are characteristics necessary for success in the workplace, and in adult life. Girls who delay sex until their 20′s are more likely to achieve a higher level of academic achievement, go on to college, and are less likely to engage in destructive behaviors such as binge drinking and drug abuse.

          • ufo42

            There’s nothing wrong with teaching girls to delay sexual activity as long as you don’t insist that their lives be ruined if that doesn’t work out for them.

            The dentist in Ireland was killed because she was denied an abortion until it was too late to save either of them. There is no debate about that, just more lies from the anti-choice, “women are cattle” brigades.

            The woman in El Salvador was given a much more dangerous procedure instead of the abortion which would have presented her with far lower risk because of draconian, anti-life anti-abortion laws dictated by the local death cult (aka the Catholic Church).

            Brain waves were detected in a dead fish as well. Someone has likened current brain scanning techniques to attempting to investigate a chess playing computer with a voltmeter. It is far from an exact science.

            Regardless of all these quibbles, no one on the anti-choice side of the debate seems to be willing to support a law which would mandate kidney donations. I wonder why? I guess life is only precious if saving it results in punishing “sluts” for their “sinful” behavior. Certainly once that life starts breathing on its own and gets itself pregnant, it isn’t precious at all.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            the brain is the last thing to develop so yes it is a very long time

          • jess

            “From the earliest stages there is still a beating heart and a functioning brain”

            What “earliest stages” are these? You definitely do not have a brain/heart at conception so I’m wondering where you place the “earliest stages” of pregnancy.

          • Basset_Hound

            What difference does it make. At conception there is a separate, unique individual life.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Both of these things occur before many abortions are performed and even before many women know they’re pregnant. Heartbeat begins at 21-22 days after fertilization, and brain waves can be measured at 6 weeks.

          • jess

            And you’re right, men should keep it in their pants if they aren’t prepared for the possibility that the woman they are having sex with isn’t ready to be a mom. Personal responsibility and all.

          • ufo42

            30% of such clumps of cells are aborted spontaneously. The clump of cells is not a viable baby until it comes out of you and draws its first breath. The fact that you lucked out and wanted your child and had the support you needed so never had to consider an abortion does not change that one iota.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Try studying “viability.” A baby can survive outside the womb much earlier than you are making it seem. Thus, viability is actually placed around 21-22 weeks currently.

      • Calvin Freiburger

        “The man kills millions of potential babies every time he ejaculates.”

        I love whenever the baby-execution apologists trot out this line in the vain hope that it makes them look clever, because all it does is demonstrate that you haven’t the foggiest clue about biology.

        “He gets nothing but pleasure from the fertilization act. The woman gets to carry the fetus for 9 months”

        I get that you guys dislike the lopsided distribution of the burden in pregnancy. And we’re all for making men legally responsible for both the women they impregnate and the babies they create. But nature made pregnancy work that way, not us, so don’t take out on us your rage about the human reproductive process not being egalitarian enough. Only sociopaths see killing an innocent baby as an acceptable solution to such problems.

        • ufo42

          Is cutting off a hangnail the same as baby-execution? The living human cells in that hangnail are also potential babies (Any one of the thousands of cells in that hangnail could with current technology become a baby.

          A clump of cells is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. Until it is born, it is living in the body of and on the physical resources of the woman. If the woman is forced to provide those resources against her will, how is her status different from that of a sheep or a cow?

          And do only sociopaths refuse to donate a kidney to an otherwise dying stranger? If heroism is mandatory, there are no heroes. Would you support a law mandating kidney donation by all healthy persons whose life would not be endangered by such an operation to any greater extent than a pregnancy endangers the life of the average woman? If not, you are, by your own definition, a psychopath because you are ok with killing innocent victims of kidney disease because of your selfishness.

          • Basset_Hound

            The hangnail cell will die shortly after being cut off from a person’s finger. It will never become anything else. It contains only the genetic components of the person from which it came.

          • ufo42

            Ditto the conceptus if it is removed from its host. It is a potential human as are all human cells if treated appropriately. You shed millions of human cells to die every hour without giving it a 2nd thought.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            Digging in your heels on your scientific illiteracy, eh? Thanks for proving that you don’t really care whether your rhetorical vomit is even remotely factual.

          • ufo42

            So you can spell “illiteracy”? But you can’t recognize it in yourself? The facts are out there, before you categorize them as vomit, maybe you should check them out for yourself.

          • jess

            But he’s correct. Please provide refuting data. You have access to the internet and libraries, I’m sure.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            Presumably you do, too. And yet, somehow you’re participating in abortion debates despite never having lifted a finger to educate yourself on the most basic biological facts germane to it. If you did, you’d never have called ufo’s asinine statements “correct.”

            A fetus/embryo/zygote is a genetically complete and distinct organism of the species Homo sapiens. He/she has unique DNA, growth, etc. Individual sperm, egg, skin, hair, etc. cells are not. They are genetically and functionally part of another human.

            Since I suspect you and ufo will insist on finding lame excuses to ignore and reject anything I might say, I’ll leave you with this admission from one of the few honest scholars on your own side, Peter Singer:

            “It is possible to give ‘human being’ a precise meaning. We can use it as equivalent to ‘member of the species Homo sapiens’. Whether a being is a member of a given species is something that can be determined scientifically, by an examination of the nature of the chromosomes in the cells of living organisms. In this sense there is no doubt that from the first moments of its existence an embryo conceived from human sperm and eggs is a human being.”

          • Shoshanna

            What would you personally do if your partner were considering abortion?

          • Calvin Freiburger

            First, nobody would become my wife in the first place if she considered it even remotely thinkable to have our son or daughter killed. Contrary to popular belief, it’s actually not all that difficult to avoid sex with people you can’t trust or don’t share your values.

            Second, if for whatever reason she found herself considering it, I’d do everything in my power to change her mind. In the unthinkable scenario where she actually did have our son or daughter killed, I’d divorce her. (And keep in mind, whatever her reason for aborting would be, it certainly wouldn’t be because I was failing to financially support our family.)

          • Shoshanna

            Who gave me a thumbs down for simply asking a question? >:P

            Thanks for the response, Calvin.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            most of the time people who you trust are the ones who rape you speaking from experiance here

          • Julia

            A hangnail is part of another person’s body. At conception a new unique irreplaceable human person is created, with her own gender, dna, hair color, eye color; this person is very small now, but will keep growing into an adult. A fetus did not change into you; you WERE a fetus. By the time an abortion is performed, the fetus is moving, has arms, legs, eyes, beating heart, etc.. True the fetus is a little clump of cells, but adults are big clumps of cells. True the fetus is less developed than your or I, but so is newborn baby. True the fetus cannot think rationally, but neither can a newborn baby.

            The fetus is also not a stranger to the woman, he/she is the mother’s own child, her flesh and blood, that she has duty to care for, like any other parent, unless/until her child can be safely handed over to someone else’s care. Fathers also, like any other parents, have duties to their preborn children, and they have a duty to support and provide for their pregnant girlfriend/wife and their preborn child. Fathers also have a duty to protect their children, including their preborn children, as best they can, which is the point of this article.

        • jess

          What did they get wrong about biology? Please explain. It seems you forgot to expound upon that point in the 4 paragraphs of your post.

        • Mayone Heró René Laurent

          i thought it was them trolling them since alot of them are probably masterbating wither they wanna admit it or not

      • blair miller

        Just because your pregnant, dose not means you can’t work, or make a living. I remember a single mom who was pregnant work at my school, and by the way you said if she can’t contol her body she is a slave.So by your logic, you can’t do a abortion. Because your killing and,contolling the babise body

  • ufo42

    I’m pleasantly surprised that my posts have lasted on this forum as long as they have. My experience with “pro-life” forums has been that anything disagreeing with the dominant message of the forum tends to get deleted pretty quickly.

    • Timmehh

      They’re pretty lenient here at LiveAction. Lifesitenews is another story. I’m pro life, but I’ve been blocked there a couple times. Once for “posting too much,” and the other time for calling people out when using false statistics (I think) . So now I post differently here than I do there.

    • Calvin Freiburger

      “IMHO the facts are clear. Criminalizing abortion leads to more deaths overall and reduces the status of women to that of cattle or sheep.”

      You do like making up false facts out of whole cloth, don’t you?

      • ufo42

        You do like parroting christian taliban propaganda, don’t you? Why not look up the statistics for yourself instead of repeating Faux News fables?

      • ufo42

        Look it up. I’m not asking anyone to believe me, but facts are facts. Jurisdictions with legal accessible abortions and free access to birth control information and evidence based sex education in schools have better outcomes not only in terms of fewer abortions, but the abortions that do happen very rarely injure the pregnant woman. Those jurisdictions also have lower rates of perinatal mortality and injury and lower rates of child mortality. They also have lower rates of divorce, sexually transmitted diseases, and domestic violence. The truth is out there. Look it up. Don’t take my word for it, and definitely don’t take Mr. Christian Taliban’s word here for it.

      • Basset_Hound

        Calvin, you’ve been more than patient with both these trolls. They’ve continued to monopolize this thread and clog it with their inane and insulting comments.

        • Calvin Freiburger

          It’s generally useful to give the bad guys just enough rope to hang themselves with. But yeah, they’ve more than overstayed their welcome. It’s been fun guys, but you’ve been spitting on our hospitality long enough :)

  • aaronmhill

    Shouldn’t it be “injunction” instead of “restraining order”? I’m not hip with all the legal parlance, but I thought injunctions were to stop action and restraining orders were to stop people?

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      You are entirely correct. Correction will be made shortly.

  • wednesday_224@hotmail.com

    This piece is so naive. Yes, in an ideal world we would have no need for abortions. There’s nothing in here about providing for this child you’ve “saved.” Or considerations of health for the baby or mother – how is daddy supposed to handle it if the birth will kill the mother? Or the mother AND the baby. What if daddy’s an abusive jerk? If you haven’t watched “Call the Midwife,” season 2 episode 5, I suggest you watch it. It might shed some light on the subject for those of you who think all babies are going to be born into a shining halo of light with loving mummies and daddies.

    • katchwa

      These plans always ‘care’ relentlessly about the fetus, but never the baby.

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      Apparently, you think every article should cover every possibly related issue. Actually, though, the topic of this article is what to do if your girlfriend or wife wants an abortion and you want to save your child’s life. Writing about how men should care for their children, not be abusive, etc. etc. are topics of other articles that pro-life authors also address. Good topics, yes, but before a child can be taken care of, her life has to be saved. And in this article, that’s what we’re talking about.

      • JezabelleDisreali

        There are 3,523,843,881 women in the world. Why not let the wife/girlfriend retain her bodily autonomy and find another woman?

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          Uh…because it’s not about “finding another woman.” It’s about saving an irreplaceable child from death.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            FETUS. F.E.T.U.S. A non-viable collection of cells. FETUS.

          • Mamabear

            Trust me, it was no “collection of cells” that kicked inside me. It was each of my three babies! They kicked to fast music and apparently napped to slow. They responded to my husband’s voice. Judging by the way they wiggled and kicked, they already had distinct personalities well before “viability.”

            The cancer tumor removed last year was a collection of cells. It never kicked!

          • Pertinacia

            Every human being is a “collection of cells”, silly.

          • ufo42

            No, it is about punishing the woman for irresponsible sex. You admitted as much above.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Lol, no I admitted no such thing. Letting a child live is not “punishment.”

        • ufo42

          You missed one! :)

          • JezabelleDisreali

            Well, I wasn’t counting me since I’d drop a guy faster than a hot potato if he tried pulling that shit. It’s the second compatibility question I ask after “Religion and Political Party?

      • ufo42

        Anti-abortion laws don’t ultimately save lives. They take more lives. If a woman sees no other viable option for her current life circumstances than an abortion or suicide, she will choose one or the other. If the abortion is illegal, those two choices often merge into one.

        • Julia

          So you are saying that their were over 1 MILLION more pregnant mother suicides per year before 1973?. I think not.

          • Julia

            So you are saying that their were over 1 MILLION more pregnant mother suicides per year before 1973 just in the USA?. I think not.
            (There are 1.3 million abortions per year in the US, and so, by your logic, all those abortions must have been suicides before that year)

  • asdfac

    Can someone please answer this serious question–if a man were to try to convince a women not to abort his child, should he also be prepared to find the resources to raise that child alone, himself? I think the answer should be “yes,” but this is not addressed in the article. Could you elaborate? If he forces a woman to go through with her pregnancy, what happens to the baby if she doesn’t want to be a mother?

    • katchwa

      Yes he should, but I don’t even want to think of that, because that eventuality allows for the fact that a man could legally overrule a woman’s reproductive rights. Which is absolutely absurd.

      • asdfac

        Well, luckily, I have a feeling that most of these “good dads” who want to force women to bear children they don’t want still would expect the women to take on the majority of the burden of raising, caring for, and paying for a child. So I don’t think there is too much to worry about. :)

        • katchwa

          Everyone wins! Lol jk.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          I’m not sure why it’s hard for people who support abortion to imagine that a dad might actually love his child, not
          just want to control a woman. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs that,
          in our nation, a mother can kill her child with zero say or permission
          from the dad, no matter how much care and support he’s willing to give.
          That’s why these dads need to know the options that they do have…

          I’ve personally talked to dads in these situations and I believe they are indeed willing to care for their child, whether the mom wants to or not. But clearly, if their child is killed, they don’t have that chance. And that’s just wrong. Killing a child is not “reproductive rights.” It’s killing a child.

          • katchwa

            Yes, Kristin, but as you well know, those of us that are pro-choice do not believe a foetus and a child are one and the same. So using that highly emotive language – again as you well know – is highly editorial.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            You call it emotive language, but it’s actually scientifically accurate language. The definition of child is:

            1) A young human being below the age of full physical development or below the legal age of majority.

            2) A son or daughter of any age.

            I do realize that it makes people who support abortion feel better about their choices to talk about a “fetus,” but the fact remains that we’re talking about a child. I’m guessing you wouldn’t deny that a “fetus” is a human being who is not fully physically developed. I’m also guessing you wouldn’t deny that gender is present in the womb, thus a “fetus” is indeed a “son or daughter of any age.”

          • katchwa

            ‘Child’ actually isn’t a scientific word, at least here in the UK. There are a whole host of different words used, i.e in genetics the word might be ‘product’ or ‘result’.

            But, jut FYI on the dictionary definition front:
            Foetus: (n )an unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular, an unborn human more than eight weeks after conception

            By your own way of rationalising: before birth it is not a child.

            You’re making a lot of guesses at what I think but you don’t ask me what I think?

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Hmmm…well, I was attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you don’t believe the things I assumed you believe, by all means say so. It will just demonstrate that people who support abortion also often deny scientific facts.

            And also, I don’t understood how “by my own way of rationalizing” a baby isn’t a child before birth. I just illustrated how I believe a baby/fetus IS a child before birth. You may disagree, obviously, but that IS exactly what I believe and what I believe that science proves.

            I don’t object, by the way, to the use of the word “fetus.” It means “little one” in Latin, and is a scientifically accurate word. I only object when people use “fetus” to dehumanize an unborn child, just as I would object if people were using “adolescent” to dehumanize a human being going through puberty. The scientific name for the stage of development a human being is going through doesn’t make them less human or less worthy of protection or basic rights.

          • katchwa

            1. Again making so many assumptions. You can just ask what my thoughts are instead of making pointed comments. You might find they are different from the generalisations you make about pro-choice people.

            2. My point being that you went dictionary definition, so I went dictionary definition.

            3. I actually don’t use the word foetus to dehumanise. I use it because it is the correct term. I take pride in my accurate use of a good vocabulary.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Well, I’ve already said that you are free to explain your actual opinions if what I’ve assumed is incorrect. So again, feel free. =)

            Good, we agree that fetus is a correct term. However, it’s not the only correct term. it is good to know that you don’t intend to dehumanize an unborn child, but by refusing to acknowledge that a fetus is a child, you are dehumanizing them.

            If you wouldn’t classify a fetus as a child, based on the definition I gave, please explain what’s wrong with that definition of a child and/or how a fetus doesn’t fit it, in your opinion.

          • Karen C

            Good on ya!

          • ufo42

            Living off another human being’s body is not a basic right of any human being. See my analogy with force kidney donation for men (since we can’t get pregnant). Would you be ok with a law that forced you to give up a kidney so that you didn’t abort the life of a seriously ill stranger? If not, then where do you get off proclaiming your right to demand that all women who get pregnant be forced to go through with it?

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            There are several differences in the analogy you bring up and in pregnancy. One of the most important being this – in approximately 98% of the cases, the woman (and man) chose to participate in an act that they knew could result in the creation of a child (very, very different from randomly being forced to donate a kidney). People ought to be responsible for their actions. It’s not about control; it’s about responsibility.

          • ufo42

            Ah ha. Now we have it again. Your attitude is not about saving lives at all. It is about punishing the “irresponsible sluts” for “sinful” sex. So in your mind, the penalty for irresponsible sex is having your life ruined, injury, or death. Regardless of which of these would eventuate absent an abortion, you think that is the “slut’s” just deserts. The anti-abortion laws don’t discriminate. Some even go so far as to prohibit a rape victim getting an abortion so the eventual baby can be used as evidence in the rape case. Yes, people should be responsible for their actions. You should be held responsible for promoting policies which lead to more death and injury while doing nothing to improve the life of anyone who is independently alive and breathing. In jurisdictions where abortion is illegal, there are more abortions and those abortions tend to be later term abortions. If you really cared about saving lives you would support mandatory kidney donation laws and you would support legalized abortion, free access to birth control services including Plan B, and evidence based sex education. Nothing reduces unwanted pregnancies and the need for abortions more than teaching kids the actual facts about human reproduction.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Nope. Seeing as I don’t believe babies are punishment, my view has absolutely nothing to do with “punishing women.” I also never said they were irresponsible – that depends on the situation, and I usually don’t know the details of people’s personal sexual lives. The point is responsibility for your actions – whether you’re a man or woman – and it has nothing to do with punishment.

          • Karen C

            Thats a great idea! Lets teach kids that reproduction only exits when you let nature takes it course. But hey, at least we have abortions to terminate a natural process. Lets not sit here and act as though the majority of “kids” don’t know about reproduction. Those that are old enough to engage in sexual activities know pretty well what happens when the egg and sperm meet.

          • Michael

            This is an extremely irrational response, projecting ideas where none were expressed. Nobody called anybody a slut, nor did they refer to punishment. Requiring that people be responsible and accountable for their actions is not punishment. A child is a natural outcome of sexual intercourse. Therefore, between two adults who choose to engage freely in sexual intercourse, the outcome of pregnancy is part of the choice to have sex. To kill the new life that is created is murder, because the child is innocent. It would be a violation of persons to require them to surrender vital organs to sustain the life of other persons, but this is a completely different reality than an organ transplant. It is emphatically NOT like requiring a kidney transplant, because none of the mother’s organs are lost through a normal pregnancy. Requiring people not to murder other persons for their own convenience and comfort is not a policy that leads to more death and injury, nor does a policy of protecting the natural human rights of unborn children negate the protection and care of life for those who have already been born. Quite simply put, in no realm of life do you get to kill another person in order to protect your own comfort or agenda. The fact that unborn persons are not protected by law is an idiotic exclusion. Also, making something illegal does not directly cause people to engage in the illegal activity. Your line of reasoning is sub-moronic, and I don’t mind saying so.

          • Ashley Briscoe

            Yes, you heard it. Stop screwing around and then killing the life you made with your sluty behaviors. lol Because 90% of you abortion lovers are anything but the victims you love to claim to be. <-Sarcasm

            Typical card for you to play isn't it?

          • Ashley Briscoe

            Living off another human beings body is not a basic right of any human being? Please tell me your secret to surviving in your mothers womb without living off of her.Awesome logic you got there.LOL ,Ok, Than please tell me how else is everyone suppose to be created? Its a NATURAL right to be birthed!

            As if the child created itself in the womb. As if the Mother HAS no responsibility!

          • Michael

            Actually, the Latin word “fetus,” from which the English term you are using comes, began to be limited in reference to the unborn only post-15th century. Before that, the word referred to any offspring. So, “child” is as scientific a word as any other. In fact, any word that can be defined can be a scientific term. The idea that a word is scientific or not is an arbitrary designation, aimed at browbeating one’s interlocutor or making him/her to appear ignorant. In fact, it is only through a willful act of ignorance that one marks a significant different between the words “foetus” and “child” or “baby”.

          • ufo42

            A child’s first birthday is the day one year from when it emerged from the mother’s womb, not one year from when it was conceived. That pretty much puts the kybosh on the idea that a child’s life begins at conception.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Wow, really? I’d like to point out that a birthday is called a BIRTHday because it’s the day a person was BORN. It’s not called your existence day.

            Honestly, there aren’t even that many pro-choicers anymore who believe a baby isn’t alive until he or she is born. That’s a highly extreme view. Would you like to explain what else is moving in a woman’s stomach during pregnancy if not a living baby who kicks, sucks his thumb, etc.? What kind of nonliving thing has a heart that beats?

          • ufo42

            I’m not saying the baby isn’t alive. I’m saying it has no civil rights because it is not independently alive. The placenta is alive too but it has no civil rights either. Not all killing is murder. Do you advocate for compulsory kidney donation? The analogy is exact. Donating a kidney by a healthy individual is not significantly more dangerous than the average pregnancy and it saves an innocent life. But should it be compulsory? If not, neither should carrying a pregnancy to term against the woman’s will. If you oppose abortion even to save the life or health of the woman, you should be for compulsory kidney donation even when it will likely kill the donor. Does that make moral sense to you? No one has answered this point.

          • fatherhood lost

            I struggle with thoughts of suicide daily because I wasn’t given the choice to raise my child. Depression has destroyed my health since the abortion due to lack of sleep, the fact that I don’t eat, and extremely high levels of stress that have resulted in medical conditions such as a bleeding ulcer and blood clots.Then there is also the serious infection from not maintaining my hygiene because I can’t face the world for days at a time. All while the woman I, against all rational thought, am still deeply in love with and care about remains totally apathetic. Doing nothing to help me cope, making me feel guilty for hurting so bad over it, saying let “let me guess, its my fault you never want to go do anything right?” Well of course it is, but only because of your lack of caring, your lie that you couldn’t have children, your irresponsibility in not getting on birth control and your disregard of any other form of contraception. Other than that the abortion is my fault. Right? because if it’s not her fault for those reasons then it must be mine because I carry the seed and was so in love with her that I trusted her enough to be as intimate as humanly possible. Get over it you might say? Tell me then, how do you propose I do that? Hmm? when my every waking second the thought of our act remains in the back of my mind, when I cannot look at a single child in existence and not feel pain, when all of our friends who are not remotely as secure as we are choose life and have their babies and raise them single handedly without food stamps let alone WIC even though the “donors” as you would likely call them have abandoned responsibility. Tell me, how do I get over it? How do I cease thinking about death, my rightful wage for my unconscionable sin of not being able to protect my first child? How does a father who’s daughter gets raped and there was nothing he could do about it because someone else chose to destroy the most precious thing he loves? How does the daughter if she were forced to live with the image of the man who raped her tattooed on her, forever legally barred from ever having it removed? Tell me the answer please. I will likely, eventually end my own life because I was refused a choice, or a voice. I try to maintain “strength” and “hope”. To tell myself that my mother and father would then become like me and have to feel as I feel and might do the same if I were gone, that suicide may invoke a chain reaction of perpetual suicides.

            I was told, “It doesn’t even have a heartbeat yet”

            That was at 7 weeks.

            Unknowingly I said “It does” and placed her hand over my heart. “Killing our child means that you will kill me. Do you wish to kill me?”

            She said “No I love you Christopher with all my heart.”

            She was over12 weeks when my child was murdered inside of her

            She lied.

            I did not.

            I do not hate her, or wish her harm, only freedom from her cruel way of thinking. Still, I give her my love and devotion. Because that is what makes her life worth living. Knowing that she is loved gives her extra purpose. If I were to show her anger or bitterness she would likely end her own life. For that I will not be responsible. I will have no more blood on my hands.

            I wish that this was fiction, an emotional ploy to further a cause, and maybe it will do that, but it is 100% fact. I am 25 years old and pray that I make it past this father’s day. Though I wonder if I would make it through a lifetime of them. It won’t take long to find out will it now?

            So tell me, how do you support and rationalize your ignorant Compulsory Kidney Donation analogy?

            Meanwhile I’ll be looking for a nice place of natural god given beauty this Father’s Day to try and feel something of myself as the man I used to be so that I can regain my pride, dignity, and will to live.

            Happy Father’s Day

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Wow, I am so, so sorry for what has happened to you. Please hang on to life – your life is precious, too, and I’m sure you will make a great dad to any other child you have one day. I know that no child can replace the one you lost, but I believe that baby knows you fought for him or her and that you loved them. I believe we all have souls, and that your baby is in Heaven, and one day, if you know Jesus, you will see that baby again. Not a lot of help, now, I know, but still – your baby would want you to hang on and live out your life here. I’d really encourage you to contact Rachel’s Vineyard, Silent No More, and/or a pregnancy resource center in your city and ask about men’s programs. You can find all of those by searching on Google. Or feel free to comment on any post on my personal blog http://www.thelostgenerations.wordpress.com, and I can write more to you. These organizations really help men deal with the aftereffects of abortions that they did not choose. I pray you will find the healing and support you need. But remember – you were a good dad, and it was NOT your fault.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            You’re still missing a major fact. A baby is not just “alive.” Yes, millions of cells are “alive.” A baby is a new, unique human life with its own DNA. It is a NEW LIFE, not just an “alive cell.” This https://www.google.com/search?q=textbooks+on+life+begins+at+fertilization&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb is a good resource to back up that scientific fact. Also, if you read the 8th Circuit Court’s opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Rounds, you’ll see that a federal U.S. court has also noted that it is scientifically accurate to call an unborn child a new, unique, living human being.

            Since you’re so fixated on the kidney analogy, read this short article to see the difference in giving life to your baby and donating a kidney: http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2009/05/drawing-closer-parallel-with-kidney.html.

          • Karen C

            Since when was pregnancy dangerous? Your analogy about kidney donation makes no sense whatsoever.

          • Sara Lin Wilde

            “Since when was pregnancy dangerous?” Since always. Historically it was commonplace for women and/or babies to die as a result of pregnancy/labour complications.

          • KCalvo

            Actually pregnancy is not dangerous. Pregnancy complications are rare as well and a good number of the dangers are caused by the mother themselves like gestational diabetes which is caused by eating too much, and a lack of exercise. If pregnancy is so dangerous as you say, nature itself would have stopped this process!

          • Sara Lin Wilde

            Everything you’ve said is factually inaccurate.

          • KCalvo

            What do i know? it not like i haven’t had children, and complications due to my irresponsible habits.

          • Sara Lin Wilde

            Your complications may well have been due to personal habits. That does not mean that all women’s complications grow out of personal habits. Your personal experience does not translate into a universal pattern.

            Not that women’s eating or exercise habits mean they deserve to be at risk through their pregnancies! But there are loads of possible pregnancy complications and dangers that have nothing to do with anything the pregnant woman does or fails to do.

          • Ashley Briscoe

            I’m guessing you have yet to have a child or pregnancy. Because it is indeed EXTREMELY rare to die from child birth. If you lived back 40+ years yes you can be scared but in that matter abortion was worse then as well. Your comment is from lack of life experience and hear say. Go research everything before coming on here and spurring outdated crap.

          • Sara Lin Wilde

            I‘m not sure why you consider whether I‘ve personally gestated to be relevant to my knowledge about when and whether pregnancy is or can be dangerous.I was responding to the question “since when is pregnancy dangerous?“ The reality is that the safety of pregnancy is extremely recent and not guaranteed by any means, even for women who engage in all the “correct“ habits. I do not take kindly to being told I lack life experience by people who have no clue what experiences I have had.

          • Elise77

            Your analogy is not only inexact, it is fallacious to the extreme. I have four children. I have PRECISELY the same number of organs I began with. I have not sacrificed a single part of my body to bring those children into the world (though I would have, if necessary). And those children were unique individuals, not body parts, even when they lived in my womb. And their lives came about due to an act that I voluntarily participated in. I was responsible for their existence. They were in NO WAY responsible for their own existence. They did not “choose” me as a “host.” They did not “enslave” me or “compel” me to bear them. They were not “parasites” that sought me out. I was fully aware, when participating in the act that created them, that sex makes babies. Even when some of them were conceived by “accident,” it was understood that sex makes babies. My husband and I have taken steps to permanently halt our baby-making days, and STILL we understand and accept responsibility for the fact that sex carries an inherent risk of conception, because EVERY type of contraception has a failure rate.

            As far as the issue of whether it would be moral to require a woman to carry to term even if the pregnancy endangered her life, WHO EVEN SUGGESTED IT WOULD?! But removing a baby from its mother’s body in order to save her life is not the same as deliberately and directly killing it. If your house is on fire and you only have time to save your wife, but you know you can not save your child, obviously you would save the one you can.

            A pregnancy may have to be “terminated” prematurely to save the mother’s life, but that doesn’t mean the baby must be murdered. The baby may die as an unintended (even if fully understood) consequence of trying to save the mother, but that is NOT the same as deliberately killing it.

            Such a poor grasp of ethics. It is no wonder you’re pro “choice.”

          • Ashley Briscoe

            Because a kidney is not going to sprout fingers and walk. I can’t believe I have to explain to you why pushing scissors into a baby’s skull is different from taking a kidney from one person to another. But then again UFO42 for a username explains a lot.

          • Ashley Briscoe

            thats right. BIRTHday not LIFEday or CONCIEVEDday.

            Your point?

          • Michael

            Referring to the child as a “foetus,” instead of a child is an emotionally manipulative technique designed to suppress the natural emotion aimed at protecting our young. It is no more rational to use the label “foetus” or “product” than simply to acknowledge the natural impulse to do whatever we can to protect the life of the pre-born baby.

          • Mehnow

            Sorry, but science disagrees and and it’s you that’s emotional here. Fact is, men should not have to accept forced abortions when science is on their side, simply because of your religion-secular humanism cloaked with false women’s rights that do not allow for even basic rights for fathers…

          • katchwa

            Also, I’d like to add that if a man is legally entitled to override a woman’s wishes on whether or not to keep a baby he should be prepared to take 100% responsibility for the child’s wellbeing to the age of 18. With child support from the mother of course. Right?

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Absolutely. And I think many dads are perfectly willing to do this or to find an adoptive couple willing to do it.

          • katchwa

            In that case I find it ethically disturbing that this hypothetical man would not go to a surrogate rather than force a woman who wants nothng to do with the child to bear it.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Perhaps because the woman in question is already pregnant with the child and you can’t exactly transfer a baby to a different womb.

          • ufo42

            But you can have a do-over with a different woman if you really want to be a dad. It is not like there is a shortage of human sperm and eggs in the world.

          • Elise77

            Seriously?! “My baby’s dead. I want a ‘do-over.’” How exactly does THAT work?? It’s not about “being a dad.” It’s about a child that already exists. But really, you knew that already. You’re being deliberately obtuse.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            If a man wants a child with a woman who does not, why doesn’t he find a surrogate? Discuss it with the woman before hand? You really should be writing about ways for a man to find a woman who agrees with him on the matter, or about how to talk about it, rather than be discussing how he can force her to carry the fetus to term.

          • Kristiburtonbrown

            Agreed entirely that a man should find a woman who is opposed to abortion before he gets her pregnant. However, that’s another issue. In this article, we’re dealing with men whose girlfriends or wives are already pregnant. They can’t exactly have a do-over at this point, and they need answers. They need ways to save their child now.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            No, it’s a fetus. And no, when there are other options available no man should force any one to do anything. Not sex, and certainly not forcing her to carry a fetus to term when she has no desire to regardless of her reasons.

          • ufo42

            No, they need to get over themselves and move on. Imprisoning the woman in a 9 month to life commitment against her will is never the answer. If you disagree with that, you should be ok with what that a-hole Castro did in Cleveland to those three women who finally escaped his clutches.

          • Gabriel Lindor

            “Get over themselves and move on”? You don’t move on from allowing your own child to die. That’s a heartless thing to say, and it’s obvious you’re not a parent. How dare you tell fathers to abandon their children; here is one man who’s decided to ignore your ridiculous talk, and if ever he becomes a father, who is wiliing to give his life for his child. I suggest you never say something so disgusting as what you’ve said in the presence of a parent, especially not someone who has lost a son a daughter.

            I hope you recognize the obvious evil of what you’re supporting.

          • Elise77

            If you think that having to live with the consequences of your own actions (for NINE WHOLE MONTHS, even!) is the same as being kidnapped, forcibly raped for ten years, and being beaten until your unborn child dies, you are officially a moron.

          • Elise77

            And conversely, if a woman wishes to have the right to “opt out” of motherhood, a man should have the right to “opt out” of fatherhood, as well. Agreed? If a woman can choose whether or not it is the “right time” for her to be a parent, so should the man. Paying child support should be optional, RIGHT??

            If you say, “he can choose not to pay child support by ‘keeping it in his pants’ or using a condom so he doesn’t create a baby with her” then congrats! You are officially a hypocrite! You don’t accept that a woman’s choices are over once conception has occurred. What a HUGE double standard to impose conditions on men that you would not impose on women.

          • Mehnow

            The “Choice4Men” (they even have had web sites before bro-choice even was a thought) crowd already for years argued this, a sort of half unilateral adoption on termed pregnancies where the mother’s rights are not affected. In theory, it sounds fair, but the child has a right to support and this issue exists BECAUSE women can opt out post conception and men cannot and have no abortion veto or even notice of one, etc.

            Yes, choicers are huge hypocrites here since many of them agree with your last comments and suddenly ape lifer arguments (only for males, who do not even gestate) as him needing to keep it in his pants and to accept biology, etc.

            The whole abortion field, coupled with unilateralism, is based on beating biology, so it’s just a crock…

          • strongwoman

            I couldn’t agree with you more Kristiburtonbrown.

      • Mehnow

        Since the woman is not the only person reproducing, your argument is biased on its face. It’s not about overriding her, it’s about repro-parity.

        Just like consent is needed for adoption by both parents.

        Stop viewing this irrationally one-sided.

        The status quo is continued pregnancy, since they both risked that via sex and both have a stake in the child by being the parent of him.her. So, it’s not an equal argument to say if he can veto an abortion he can force her to abort.

        This whole idea of one-sided repro-rights is just flawed on its face.

    • Karen C

      she doesnt have to. The father will eventually find another partner.

    • disqus_HnwnM1hoQF

      Seriously…how is this even in question? A man should always be prepared to raise his kids in the absence of their mother. What if something happens to her? That’s just part of the minimum requirement for being a man (or a woman, for that matter): that you take care of your responsibilities.

      The problem is, we have a world full of adult people who are not grown up. We are narcissistic, childish little over-grown children. If we weren’t, we’d never be conceiving children out of wedlock or in poverty, we wouldn’t have absent biological fathers (or mothers; trust me — I know a thing or two about that one), and we certainly wouldn’t be killing over 3500 of our children every day.

    • Brown Sugar

      He should be a father and she should be a mother. If you don’t like the man and don’t want a long term relationship with him. Then go home and use your non feeling vibrator and leave the guy alone.

    • ihategroupthink

      Your question shares the same answer as this question:

      If a man were to try to convince a woman not to kill their infant, should he also be prepared to find the resources to raise that child alone, himself?

      Please don’t say “the fetus is dependent on the mother”, because a child is dependent on his/her caretakers. Please don’t mention “my body”, because it is not only the mother’s body, but a human attached to the mother’s body. After all, an attached (conjoined) twin can not say to her sibling, “I got to let you go now, my body.”

      Finally, your question shifts the focus from an aborted human who had his/her future taken away and a father grieving for it, to a hypothetical power struggle between a man and a woman. Please don’t take the human who lost his/her future out of the picture.

    • strongwoman

      Yes, I think if he wants to stop her from having an abortion and she does not want to be a mother that he should be ready and willing to care for the child alone. however, I DO still feel that she should either sign over her parental rights, or pay child support(since this is a way that any man in the reverse situation would have to deal with it).

  • katchwa

    No tip on WEAR A CONDOM JERK?

    • JezabelleDisreali

      No, because that sperm is special and shouldn’t be restrained. Whereas a woman cannot be trusted with her own body and eggs, didn’t you know that?

      • Calvin Freiburger

        Tell me, when did you decide intentionally lying about viewpoints you disagree with was something your conscience could tolerate?

        • ufo42

          Same to you, bub!

        • JezabelleDisreali

          How is sarcasm lying? You’ll notice that other than finding ways to force a woman to carry a fetus against her will, Live Action doesn’t do anything to actually prevent abortions. Nor do any other anti-choice organizations for that matter. Where is the push for easy access to the pill? For annual medically accurate, age appropriate sex in schools that starts in middle school at minimum? Where are the blog posts about how a man can prevent pregnancy himself? About how a guy can talk constructively to a woman about her reproductive choices and how they intersect with his?

          There isn’t any, or if there is, it’s limited and rare. Every prong of attack is aimed at women, with nothing for the men. It is only logical to conclude that men can be trusted with their gametes, while women can’t.

          • ufo42

            Right. All this “pro-life” propaganda is part of the God’s Own Party’s war on women’s freedoms.

          • Julia

            “Every prong of attack is aimed at women, with nothing for the men” Oh, so you don’t think it awfully convenient for men to be able to have no strings attached sex, because if a child is conceived, they can just pressure their girlfriend into aborting, and not have to pay child support for the next 18 years?

            The most solidly, consistently pro-abortion sector of the population is men 18-35 yrs, because abortion does the most for them.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            Because your comment is an absurd and malicious mischaracterization of pro-life views, and it is not plausible that you don’t already know it. I don’t think you sincerely believe a word you just typed; you just spew it because pretending our views are something else feeds your psychological need to hate us and deflect from the evil of your own position.

  • Rice

    Fundies are the most illogical people on the planet. They just want to get in everyone’s business, don’t they? Like a bunch of bored, gossip-mongering teenagers. This article is disgusting the way it advocates emotional manipulation and reactionary, pseudo-scientific garbage. Nobody has the right to interfere with another person’s medical decisions. Full stop. Don’t like abortion? Don’t sleep with women who would choose abortion. Simple as that. There are plenty of nice women hanging out at church – date them instead.

    • Calvin Freiburger

      Thank you for demonstrating the ignorant, dishonest bigotry that is the essence of the pro-choice mind.

      • ufo42

        Thank you for demonstrating the ignorant, dishonest bigotry that is the essence of the Christian (and Muslim) Taliban mind. It is sad that many brave US soldiers are fighting the Muslim Taliban in the pestilential hell-holes that are the Islamist theocracies in the rest of the world while at home, the Christian Taliban is fighting to overturn the very freedoms they are fighting for. A Christian Taliban theocracy in the US would be the ultimate betrayal of these soldiers and the ultimate disaster for all humanity.

        • Basset_Hound

          Taliban???? Wow! Talk about hyperbole! That’s a new low, even for you.

          Show me ONE case where any mainstream Catholic or Evangelical organization has advocated honor killing, or FGM. Show me ONE case where a Southern Baptist has strapped himself with explosives and blown up a crowded marketplace. Don’t even think about mentioning Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill or Fred Phelps. Pro-life organizations vociferously denounce those nutballs.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            what about the people who blow abotion clinics and shoot abotion providers.

        • Calvin Freiburger

          That was one intentional slander too many. You’re gone, scumbag.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            wait so u just deleted them for disagreeing with you isnt that what the taliban in a sence kinda does. eh?

  • JezabelleDisreali

    Ladies, (and men too) “Are you an anti-choice dick head or will you respect my body and my decisions regarding it and my reproductive choices?” should be one of the first questions you ask on a first date. Get that business out of the way before coffee and dessert.
    Also remember, that perhaps resentment may build after an abortion. A child doesn’t help either. If you think tensions are high after a woman makes a choice, imagine how it’s going to be if you force her to have a child.

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      How it’s going to be if you “force” her to have a child? Well. for one, your child will be alive. For two, I would imagine that in most cases the relationship is over anyway as the guy realizes that this woman would freely kill any of his children, given the choice.

      • JezabelleDisreali

        So, in that scenario the woman is forced to have a child she doesn’t want and that she may feel intense resentment and dislike towards. Further, the support system the woman may have had within that relationship is completely eroded, and that child grows up in a toxic environment. That sure sounds wonderful. Not.

        As a child that wasn’t wanted, I can tell you it sucks huge balls to know that your birth ruined your mothers life. And that you will be reminded of this every time your mother looks at you, and every time your father complains about the relationship he has with your mother. It’s miserable for everyone involved, and far from ideal for any child.

        • Basset_Hound

          “As a child that wasn’t wanted, I can tell you it sucks huge balls to know that your birth ruined your mothers life.”

          Been there…done that, and can send back postcards, sweetpea. I spent my teen and young adult years struggling with depression, suicidal thoughts, and serious self esteem problems. Finally, I woke up, put on my big girl panties and decided to stop blaming Mommy because my life sucked, and got professional help. I now have a happy marriage and a loving family.

          So what, pray tell happens if a woman has a child she initially wants, but she decides that the colicky newborn isn’t the cute, smiling goo-g00 doll she envisioned when she became pregnant? By your “logic” she can kill him because “like wow, man. His life will suck balls because I don’t really want him anymore”.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            No, she can’t because it is now a baby, not a fetus. And what is wrong with making sure that every child is born because it is wanted, not because Daddy suddenly got it into his head that he could force Mommy to obey his will?

          • Basset_Hound

            There is no difference between a “baby” and a “fetus” other than level of development. That’s like saying an adult has more right to live than a toddler or an infant.

          • JezabelleDisreali

            A fetus cannot preform basic life functions outside the womb, it cannot breath on it’s own, cannot keep it’s heart beating, and it does not have brain function. A baby can do all of these things, and is thus alive.

          • ufo42

            You, like every human being alive today won a lottery against incredible odds. The chance of any one specific egg and any one specific sperm getting together and forming a viable oocyte which then develops without further problems into a fetus and then survives the shock of birth are truly astronomical. Yet it has happened often enough to get the would human population to over 7 billion persons. The fact that you were able to pull your life together despite what must have been a horrible childhood is to your credit. The fact that your mother chose not to have an abortion even though she felt it would ruin her life is to her credit. That does not give you or her the right to judge other women who may be in even worse situations and who decide that the least bad option for them is to terminate their pregnancy. You know your mother. Judge her all you like, but you don’t know the thousands of women who died from botched back-alley abortions before Roe V Wade and therefore you are in no position to judge them. To suggest that we return to those barbaric times, is truly heartless.

          • Basset_Hound

            OH REALLY???? Indeed I am in that position, and indeed I do have the right to denounce abortion and to “judge” that the act is evil. As for the “thousands of women”…Dr. Bernard Nathanson was the head of NARAL in the 1960s. He stated that he DELIBERATELY exaggerated the numbers of women who died from pre-Roe back alley abortions to gain sympathy for his cause, which in that culture was a hard sell. In 1972, the CDC reported only 39 deaths. All Roe accomplished is that back alley butchers can hang out shingles in public and advertise in the yellow pages.

          • Sherridan Jones

            Judge lest ye be judged, according to your precious book.

          • Basset_Hound

            You couldn’t even be bothered to get the quote right. Never mind trying to understand the real meaning.

          • Sherridan Jones

            You want it quoted verbatim fine: 1. Judge not, that ye be judged. 2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then
            shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. 6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls
            before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again
            and rend you. Matthew 7: 1-6 King James

            I am quite familiar with the meaning as well, considering my father is a minister and I spent 18 years of my life learning all about the doctrine. I have also read the Bible from cover to cover 8 times. Can you say the same? I know more about the Christian religion than 99% of Christians, that’s why I am no longer one. By the way, it’s meaning is obvious to anyone with even the smallest understanding of the English language; don’t judge others, that’s for “god” to do.

          • Basset_Hound

            If you’ve indeed “read the bible from cover to cover 8 times”, as you claim, you would realize that Christians are frequently admonished avoid evil, flee from temptation, cling to what is good, and lovely, and to speak out against evil in society. And how pray tell do we do any of this without making a judgement of a particular behavior or action? The Bible also calls on believers to forgive those who sin against us. If we aren’t allowed to judge something as a sin or wrongdoing, then how can we forgive? Your opinions seem to be based on bitterness and anger, which will poison your life (if it hasn’t already).

          • Sherridan Jones

            Of course I realize all of that. The bible and christian doctrine are extremely contradictory, which is part of the reason why I stopped believing in 2000 year old fairy tales 13 years ago. No, my “opinions” are not based on bitterness and anger, they are based on reason, experience and knowledge. My life was poisoned, by christian doctrine, it is no longer. I am free of it’s fear and oppression. Nor do I call people evil because some book written in the bronze age says I should.

          • Basset_Hound

            I called no person evil. I called the action of killing a child for convenience evil, because brutalizing a helpless person IS evil. Not because “some book written in the bronze age said I should”.

          • Mayone Heró René Laurent

            i don’t think people do that often decide they want to have a baby want a baby then baby comes and is annoying as heck decides to have abortion on a already born baby which isnt possible but lets say it is.

        • Mayone Heró René Laurent

          isnt that same hatred of not wanting the kid that produced such a strong hatred and toxic environment that it produced hitler.

      • Mayone Heró René Laurent

        as opposed to her dumping him for forcing her to do something she dosnt want to.

  • katchwa

    And I’m done, been great playing with you scallywags!

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      Thanks for the discussions!

  • Karen C

    Abortion is an act committed by the irresponsible. If the love that a mother feels for her child is indescribable, then women who kill their children feel no love and have no soul. This article talks about men actually wanting to have kids. Then these same women complain about there being no good men out there, and dead beats, etc. The world we live in is full of self-centered, and irresponsible women. No wonder we have all the social problems we have. No wonder marriage isn’t sacred anymore. No wonder teenage pregnancy is extremely high. Cause the solution to an unintended pregnancy is to get rid of it. When will teach our children about the consequences of our actions? The world was such a better place before abortion was legalized.

    • ufo42

      I see the Church Lady has surfaced again. Doing our little superior dance, are we? Isn’t that conveeenient! All women who find themselves in sufficiently dire straits to require an abortion are irresponsible sluts. It must be nice to be so secure in your own self-righteousness. I guess the parts of your Bible that speak of compassion are just to rope the unwary into your death cult.

      I guess the idea that the demonstrated deadly consequences of your fellow christian taliban’s push to drive abortion underground just don’t matter because your policies only harm those irresponsible sluts. If by the world being a better place before abortion was legalized, you mean that you applaud the untold lives that were lost in agony by women who were afraid to reveal their pregnancy to abusive parents and availed themselves of coat-hanger abortions, then it is you who have no soul.

      • KCalvo

        From your idiotic responses, i can take it that you are a man. when you are pregnant, you are the mother of an unborn child. If the same goes for men, then men should not get angered by a women having an abortion because they aren’t the “father” to begin with- they should contributed to the creation of another human being. To be a mother you don’t have to give birth to that child. These are the definitions for a mother:

        A female person who is pregnant with or gives birth to a child.

        b. A female person whose egg unites with a sperm, resulting in the conception of a child.

        c. A woman who adopts a child.

        d. A woman who raises a child.

        http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mother

        • ufo42

          Your 2nd sentence is incoherent. Evidently, I have pushed some emotional buttons. Sorry about that. But you are the one putting forward idiotic ideas. Here are a couple of Miriam Webster definitions for you:

          mur·der

          /ˈmərdər/Noun

          The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
          Verb

          Kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

          Abortion is not unlawful and a fetus is not a human being. An egg is not a chicken. An oocyte is not a fetus. A fetus is not a child. That’s why we have different words for these things.

          moth·er

          /ˈməT͟Hər/

          Noun A woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth.

          Your definitions c and d for “mother” are also valid. b. is not. A female person is not a mother until she gives birth. Before that she is a pregnant woman and a potential mother.

          • Karen C

            Emotional buttons? Last time i noticed, you replied to my comment first.

  • Sherridan Jones

    You are a bane on all women and their rights, including yourself and your own rights! Do you think you would have been able to even become an attorney if the women before you did not fight for your right to choose your career and education? PLEASE! You are a bigger hypocrite than any male who tries to spout off about women’s own bodies!

    • Kristiburtonbrown

      Hmmm…and where did a say that a woman has no right to choose her career and education? Pretty sure the only thing I’m saying her is that a woman should not have the right to freely kill her child (i.e., not her own body). And a man who helped create that child should also have the right to save his child’s life.

      • ufo42

        No, you didn’t, but you are arguing the same case that was used to prevent women from doing anything other than staying at home pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, making their wifebeaters a sammich. If you succeed in making abortion illegal you will be condemning many more women to the status of cattle or sheep. Farm animals can’t be lawyers. If a woman can’t make critical decisions about her body and life like when or if to have a child, she is a slave. You are indirectly advocating for slave (or farm animal) status for women.

        • Basset_Hound

          What an INSULT to me, as a woman, to argue that I can’t achieve an education or participate in the work force unless I have a “right” to kill my children in the womb. YOU are arguing that women can’t achieve anything unless it comes on the broken bodies of our children. YOU are arguing that a woman can’t be a mother and lawyer. There are plenty of women who will stand up and say otherwise.

          • ufo42

            Are you saying Phyllis is a farm animal or slave? Just wondering. :)

            Just because you have never found yourself in the position at (say) age 16, pregnant, with a condemning unsupportive or even murderous family, and nowhere to turn for help, doesn’t make it ok for you to presume to know what is the best choice for someone in that position. What an insult to all your fellow human beings to insist without knowing anything about their circumstances that they adhere to your narrow view of morality.

            No one is telling you to have an abortion. You are presuming to restrict the rights of others and presuming to equate a safe, legal operation which, if readily accessible does nothing more than what nature does in 30% of all pregnancies without any human intervention — with murder.

          • Basset_Hound

            “Are you saying Phyllis is a farm animal or slave? Just wondering. :)”

            No, idiot. I’m saying she is an accomplished, educated woman who made her own way without special quotas or set asides, and without needing to kill an unborn child so she could succeed.

            So we reach out and HELP the pregnant 16 year old with the murderous family by giving her a place to go where she and her child will be safe, and throw the family members who hurt her in jail.

            Using your “logic”, I can break into anyone’s house and use their swimming pool because a man had to break into his neighbor’s house to save her from a fire. And using your “logic”, a mother can kill her three month old infant because “nature” kills a certain percentage of babies by SIDS.

            There are laws in place to protect the weak and the helpless from people who would gain an advantage by hurting them. That’s why we have laws against child and elder abuse. If a mother does not want her baby, society restricts her options. She can surrender her child to foster care or adoption. She can readjust her attitude (with our without a professional counselor). But she can’t neglect, abuse, abandon or kill the child. They’re “restricting the mother’s rights” Oh the humanity! And all your thread clogging slobbering bloviations will not convince the people who run this site that unborn children deserve any less protection.

          • ufo42

            Ms. Shafly is also a hypocrite who is telling women to STFU and stay home and raise their children while she herself delegated the raising of her 6 children to a nanny while she went around the country attacking women’s, homosexuals, and black people’s civil rights and running for political office.

            In the real world (which for some reason you refuse to believe we all live in) you do NOT reach out and HELP the pregnant 16 year old because even if you wanted to (and I’m not convinced you do given Kristi…’s earlier admission that this issue is really more about holding “sluts” responsible for “immoral” sex than about saving lives) because you don’t even find out she exists until her tragic story winds up in a newspaper article somewhere.

            Using your “logic”, the 16 year old, along with every woman who has sex outside of marriage (with or without her consent) should be stoned to death. That’s what your hero’s precious Bible says is God’s command in such cases.

            There may be laws in place to protect the weak and helpless but how are they working out for those in Christian Taliban controlled areas like the Southern US? How do the statistics on abortion, child abuse, STDs, teen (and even pre-teen) pregnancy in those areas compare to the same statistics in civilized countries which have put religious fanaticism behind them? Look it up. You might be surprised.

            No one is advocating infanticide, nor even abortion. Abortion is always seen as Plan C when all else fails. By advocating for making abortion illegal you are advocating for the policies which have been demonstrated time and again in pre-Roe V Wade USA and to this day in Christian Taliban controlled states to lead to the opposite outcomes to the ones you claim to want to see.

            When abortion is illegal, that is usually motivated by Christian Taliban considerations of your imaginary friend’s “Law” and almost always goes with draconian restrictions on birth control and evidence based sex education. The result is more unwanted pregnancies, more STD, more illegal and deadly (for the pregnant woman as well as the fetus) abortions, and fewer life opportunities for women. If you take the Bible at its word, the status of women is not a much higher than that of cattle or sheep.

            Don’t take my word for it, after all, you think I’m the idiot in this discussion. Prove you’re not the idiot by looking up the statistics and Bible passages I’m referring to and wake up!

      • Sherridan Jones

        You didn’t say that and neither did I. I simply pointed out the fact that you would not be able to even be a lawyer if women in the past had not fought for your right to choose to do that. I am for the right of every person to choose what they do with their own bodies and lives as long as that doesn’t infringe on the rights of others. Since a fetus cannot live outside of a woman’s womb it is a parasite, not a person and will not be one until it can live outside the womb. Therefore having an abortion before the third trimester is not killing a “child” but a parasitic entity that has no rights of it’s own since it cannot live on it’s own. I was violated and became pregnant and I chose not to have an abortion, but I had that choice. You are saying that the man who raped me should have had a say in what I did. You are also advocating that I should not have even had the choice to terminate that pregnancy even though I never consented to anything. You are a bane on all women, as I said before.

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  • Brown Sugar

    Men should have a say, because without them, there would not be a choice to make in the first place. I am a woman and for the life of me, I just can not understand why all these women keep having abortions . Are they all to stupid to use birth control ? And if the new birth controls aren’t working right, then they need to notify the FDA or something.

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  • ihategroupthink

    Great Job Kristi. Many men do suffer when they lose an offspring (though the pre-born human loses the most as it loses his/her future), I’m glad you brought this subject up.

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  • agtmctae

    10 months ago my unborn child was killed against my wishes while I was at sea.
    The girl I was dating for several months informed me of her pregnancy a week before I was due to return home. Tests proved it was mine. Her mind was made up and no matter how hard I begged, or how much I pleaded to let me take care of the baby after its birth, or how loud I screamed on deaf ears, she refused to let it live and aborted our child 2 days before I returned to land. Granted, I could not stop her while I was at sea no more than I could have stopped her if I was on land. But she selfishly robbed me of my choice & my right. The pain of losing my unborn child that way was beyond devastating and has never left me, and though the pain has subsided some since then, it will forever remain the deepest scar I will have for life.
    We are not together anymore, and I still refuse to forgive her for what she has done, because she has no pity or remorse over it. And she believed it was not the same as losing a child because it was in the womb. My baby had life regardless if it was breathing the same air as me & I honor my lost child where she refuses. I planted a tree in my baby’s honor as a memorial. It has helped my healing process, and I go to that tree to talk to my child daily when I am home. I don’t know the future. I know that right now I do not know what it feels like to have a child, …I only know what it feels like to lose one. I suppose what gives me peace, is that my child is in God’s arms if it could not be in mine. And I rejoice knowing we will be reunited one day.

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  • kally

    Can the woman get a C-section at the start of the third trimester and let the father have his chance (Paying the hospital and having all the hard times with the baby)?
    I’m not against abortion, but that baby/fetus is 50% of the father and if he wants to have it, well he should.

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  • Lost Sheep

    What about #6), which should actually be #1), OFFER TO MARRY THE MOTHER OF YOUR CHILD. There is no better reason to marry; you like her well enough to impregnate her didn’t you? It would probably work 99% of the time as well.

  • Malika Jasheedah

    with your roots and herbs you have enveloped my frown face with smile, slung to stand,tube tie burned alive, i used your herbs and root according to the instruction given it materialized,i have conceive now,from letter A-z can’t speak how joyful i’m. contact him via on facebook (Oduduwa Ajakaye)

  • Wendy Jeanlouis

    The funny thing is when baby comes these are the same men who turn their backs on their kids and don’t help with caring for the child. I see this and hear stories all the time girl gets pregnant, wants abortion, pleads with girl, she changed her mind, baby comes now he is never there to help and u end up raising a kid urself. No thank you you have no right Becuz u not only don’t carry babies many of u walk away. Then it’s up to a woman to raise a kid she never wanted in the first place