walter671

Miscarried at 19 weeks, baby Walter’s life is changing the abortion debate

Baby Walter cuddled up to his mom.
F2 Photography: Baby Walter cuddled up to his mom.

“Clump of cells.” “Tissue.” “Just a fetus.” These are common ways people who are pro-abortion describe the preborn in order to diminish the humanity of these new lives. But what people label the preborn is not what defines them, and that is proven by the life of one small child. In the summer of 2013, Walter Joshua Fretz was born at just 19 weeks’ gestation. He lived only moments, but his life has had a lasting impact.

Walter’s parents, Lexi and Joshua Fretz, mom and dad to two girls (who welcomed their third daughter, Mia, this September), were excitedly awaiting the arrival of their newest baby when, according to Lexi’s blog, she began experiencing spotting. This wasn’t unusual for her during pregnancy, but when the spotting turned pink she grew more concerned and called her midwife, who advised her to go to the ER.

In the ER, several pregnant women came in after her and were taken straight to the maternity ward. But since Lexi was not yet 20 weeks – she was 19 weeks and 6 days – the hospital rules required her to stay in the ER.  After about an hour, Lexi was able to hear her baby’s heartbeat and felt relieved, but as she waited for an ultrasound, Lexi began to feel the familiar pains of labor. Nearly five hours after arriving at the hospital, Lexi gave birth to her son, Walter Joshua Fretz. She writes:

I was crying so hard at this point, but he was perfect. He was fully formed and everything was there, I could see his heart beating in his tiny chest. Joshua and I both held him and cried over him and looked over our perfect, tiny son.

Baby Walter.
Baby Walter.

Joshua’s next decision seemed small and natural, but would end up being a life changer and even a lifesaver for many others. He went to the car to get Lexi’s camera so he could take photos of his son. At first, this was not something Lexi wanted, but the pictures of Walter soon spread across the Internet. The photos reached grieving mothers and helped them through the loss of their own babies, and they were used to help women choose life for their preborn children. Lexi has received so many positive messages and shared some, including:

Just came across Walter’s pictures… I am pregnant and been in such a bad place this week. Did my first scan last week and he’s a boy, too. But this week I started praying for a miscarriage or decide to terminate since his father has shirked all responsibility. I asked God to gimme a sign today that we will be fine, or I go ahead and seek a termination tomorrow. A few hours later I see the link on Facebook. It put me to tears. But most importantly it has made me know without a doubt that i cannot do this to him.

Walter and his mom.
Walter and his mom.

I used to believe that there were reasons to justify some abortions. […] And now seeing Walter there lying on your chest brings me to shame for my former opinions and to heartbreak for every woman who decides to terminate without understanding the value of the life within them.

Walter and his dad.
Walter and his dad.

I have always thought it was a woman’s choice to abort a pregnancy! Again lack of understanding thinking or rather being led to believe that at this stage a woman would be aborting a fetus ( mass of cells!) How wrong!!!  I’m glad you chose to share your story and beautiful photos of such a sad time in your life as you’ve educated me!

Walter and his big sisters.
Walter and his big sisters.

I’m pregnant 8 weeks and for 3 weeks of that I have been in total agony what to do weather to keep him/her or abort ( I’m not in a great position for children at the moment) but you have put my life into perspective, I can love this baby and “get by” so that’s enough now for me, I’m keeping this baby I’m carrying and I’m going to treasure him/her for eternity.

Baby Walter.
Baby Walter.

These photos of Walter show the humanity of the preborn child. They prove without a shadow of a doubt that this is a person, not a blob or a bunch of tissue. Which begs the question: Why is it legal to end the life of a preborn human?

“Just because the child within cannot be seen by us does not mean that it is a blob of cells,” writes Lexi. “Walter was perfectly formed and very active in the womb. If he had just a few short more weeks he would have had a fighting chance at life. […] In all our hurt, I am glad that some good can come out of this. I pray that the Lord will continue to use Walter’s photos to impact many.”

All photos courtesy of: F2 Photography by Lexi

  • Conrad LG Mbajo

    touching.

  • chrissycat77

    Thank you so much for sharing your life and heart wrenching experience with all of us. God bless you all. Jeremiah 1:5

  • Morgie K.

    That is so touching! I am sorry for your loss :(

  • Deanna McNeal

    Thank you for sharing Walter with us. He’s a beautiful boy. We miscarried at 16 weeks in 1975. I’ll never know if we had a girl or boy but my heart is filled with warmth knowing you got to see and hold your precious son. God is an awesome GOD and loves us all from conception to death and beyond. I’m praying for comfort and healing.

  • carissa Barton

    I also had a miscarriage at 5 months along …my son Cody looked just like that …looking at him made me think to myself …why would any woman end a life so sweet and so precious…made me sick to my stomach

    • Marilyn

      I had a miscarriage at 5 mts too, and was told it was only tissue and membranes and I didn’t see it.A few years later, I was looking at my file at the Drs.office and it said it was a boy.Of course the Dr. that saw me in the ER was not my Dr.,he was out of town at the time.

      • Kdmgr

        So sorry to hear you didn’t get proper after-care.

      • Melanie Longworth

        Oh, that makes me angry for you. You should have been allowed to see and touch and hold anything you wanted. You lost a baby and should have been able to grieve in which ever way you wanted. I am so sorry, you and your son deserved more.

      • kimmy bRyaNT

        I had my son at 5months. Tha hospital did Tha same thing to me. RefuseD to let me see, touch or hold my baby, then made me leave without him. They would not allow me to have his remains either. I was told to come back to pathology in 2 weeKs to collect remains, but when I got there I was informed my son was incinerated. This caused me to have a mental breakdown that I still haven’t fully recovered from. DocToRs, nurses, hospiTal, had no compassion for my loss, they said it’s just a clump of cells it’s not an actual baby. My son was real. My son was kicking AlReaDy. He wasn’t a clump of cells. He was my child. AusTyN Paul BRyant 2-14-2012

        • Miakia Nathaniel

          What does incinerated mean? They burned your sons remains?

          • daera

            Yes that is what it means. Sadness.

          • Miakia Nathaniel

            Thank you.

          • Love2trailride

            the sugar coated name is cremation

          • BJ

            Cremation is what someone or their family does by choice when someone passes away and it’s supposed to be done with dignity. Incineration is done is a hopper with all the the other body parts that were discarded, broken, diseased parts. No dignity given or care taken of baby’s remains being tossed in with the trash. I would sue the crap out of them. Let them feel a little incineration on their asses. God, that pisses me off.

          • Oh they will! When they reach H E L L! God will see to it that they do!

          • veecee

            Trying to get rid of the evidence of Life in all its glory, so they can continue their Holocaust without interference

        • Gennifer

          That is infuriating and my heart is deeply saddened for your loss and inability to have grieved and properly bury your child as you wished. I hope you sought retribution for such a terrible act..not that anything could change your pain..but perhaps could stop others from knowing the same hurt. Prayers and love to you.

        • Shawna Hughes-Lamoureux

          Praying for your healing, I am so sorry that you have had to face this… Grieve the loss of your little one my dear, he certainly was real and well aware of how much he was and is loved by you ♥ he may be gone but he is not forgotten ♥

        • Joyce

          Very sorry for the awful treatment. God bless and heal your heart.

        • Azailia_Nicole14

          This just pissed me off. I just gave birth to my daughter 5 months ago. I was 34 weeks and she was stillborn. I couldn’t imagine not being able to hold her because someone else thinks it isn’t necessary. I would’ve sued for pain and suffering. That’s just not right and I’m so sorry you had to endure such pain. Your son DOES matter! He once had a heartbeat and movements for goodNess sake

        • leanne

          No way in hell. I would go insane. I’d MAKE them let me see my baby.. I’m so sorry.

        • cranemaker

          How horrific and unacceptable of that hospital.

        • peggy Dixon

          They could not legally do this. You need to get a good layer through a pro-lie lawyer firm. You had parental rights to that child and nothing can interfere with that. Get a lawyer!!!!!

          • blindjustice

            I totally agree, not to mention the loss caused extreme emotional distress. I believe you have a three year window.

        • Cameron

          I am so very sorry for u! That hospital had no right to do anything to your child without ur permission! If I were u I’d get a layer and sue but not for revenge (even though u may feel like it) but sue them to possibly help insure that they don’t hurt other mothers like that! My heart goes out to u. Even tho I don’t kno u I promise u will be in my prayers.

          • grizzlymom

            You cannot sue- I am so sorry. You sign papers in the hospital that allows the hospital to follow their procedures with specimens, etc.( I am sorry to call a child by that name). If a child is 20 weeks or less it is treated with respect and examined for abnormalities. We need to change the laws if we want to have life respected at every stage. That means voting for pro-life candidates. Some hospitals are better than others at helping the grieving mother and father and family, they take photos, footprints, etc. I have lost many children myself and I know the horrible pain of losing a child. But God is merciful and I have a beautiful son ( adopted). And I have great respect and admiration for mothers that give their children a chance at life through adoption if they cannot care for them. It is truly an unselfish choice of extreme love. May God Bless all Mothers in their vocation to motherhood.
            Peace to all.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Amen !

        • Rosina Certo

          I’m so sorry for you kimmy. Your baby is in heaven because the innocent go to their Creator. I hope this is comforting.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Amen .

        • Sincere Kota

          I’m so sorry… that’s horrible I’m just really really sorry

        • Lilian

          It’s hard to believe that people would be so… evasive regarding your son in 2012. Apparently many people still hold to the idea that a pregnancy loss is best dealt with by pretending it never happened.

          What they did to you was cruel, and it hindered your ability to grieve. Completely pissy, inexcusable care.

          Austyn was real, and he was a little boy. He lived, he died, and he will never grace this earth again. They should have acknowledged that. I know you have.

        • mike

          I am sorry that happened to you.

        • jess

          I have heard some hospitals sell the remains………….that would totally make more sense why they were not honest. You will find that people who have that little value for human life usually have other rotten fruits in there life …… not saying they are doing that but its possible. It sounds like they didn’t want you having the body with insistence, perhaps to make some money off of these babys. Someone needs to stop what they are doing! and if your the one for the job….GOD BLESS YOU!

          • Marlaina Eldey

            Why would you even bring this up… These ladies are grieving. The last thing they need to hear is what you just said. Think before you post.

          • marylyn

            AMEN…..thanks Marlaina

          • blindjustice

            It was my first thought as well. I will say no more out of respect for the mothers emotional distress.

          • prolifemama

            Marlaina, Marylyn, blindjustice – I appreciate your concern for all of us who have had these experiences. But knowledge is power, and knowing what COULD happen can help us prevent such things. These tragedies are difficult to learn about, yes, but we are women, and our strength is in our compassionate sharing with one another.

            Though these are horrific experiences, they are shared in love and justified anger. We can help one another to heal from them.

            God bless your compassion, Marlaina, Marylyn and blindjustice!

        • Danielle Nash

          I’m so sorry!! Those people should be ashamed of themselves!! I too have lost a child, he was 6yrs old when the good Lord called his angel back home… 3 wks later I gave birth to our 4th son. I had to be put all the way to sleep because I had an emotional break down. When I came through my husband thought he had lost me as well because I was call in for our son that we lost… prayer, family and our church family have kept me going for without them I would have been in an institution… may God give you the strength and peace to help you move forth and know that you baby is your guardian angel!!

        • Rita Eytcheson Robbie

          That is inhumane!!! If it was 50 yrs ago I might understand it, but now days?!! You could sue for the emotional trauma of such a heartless medical center. It’s appalling!! I pray you will get the help you need to heal from this horrible tragedy :’-( <3

        • MzNelson42

          That’s terrible. I am so sorry for the loss and mistreatment you suffered.

        • debbie

          I had a baby in 1984 a girl. She was early at 28 weeks. My husband held her and bonded with her . I o.ly got to see her and touch her tiny foot. The next day i was told she was sent for autopsy and creamation. I have grieved for her all these years . I have no pictures just my memories of how she looked so beautiful. I would give anything to hold her and have a picture of her.
          My only comfort is one day i will be with her in heaven.

        • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

          I am so sorry for you . Too many have lost their compassion . What they to you and your child is wrong . I am so so sorry …………

        • Emily Cano

          So sorry that’s not right you should have been able to hold him. Grieve for him.

      • Christina Rodriguez

        I wish they would have let you see him. You could have had a few moments with him

      • lizbeth

        I am so sorry you went through that. So awful.

      • Jaime

        That is so wrong that the hospital would not let you hold ur baby. I have lost 4 pregnancies one a set of identical twin boys at 5 months. My prob was my cervix except the twins. And I have held all my babies and had them baptized,. I am so sorry.

      • Mona Hernandez

        I had to go through the whole labor and delivery, when I lost my first baby boy at 5mo. I wouldn’t have managed very well, if I hadn’t been able to hold my baby. That was 21yrs ago.
        I also had another miscarriage 11yrs ago, at 8mo into my pregnancy. Another boy, I also held him, and so did my daughter, who was 8yrs old at the time. Its a major part in the role of healing you heart.

      • Deb

        I had a miscarriage at 4 months and was told it was just a mass of cells. I wasn’t given the opportunity to see or know the sex of my baby. I’ve spent 30 years feeling guilty over hurting about what was “just a mass of cells.”

        • Valerie Finnigan

          Hugs.

        • Deborah L

          You will one day meet this baby and rejoice together.

        • Lilian

          Hurting over the death of your child is nothing to feel guilty about, no matter how young the child was. Hugs to you.

      • Lilian

        That shouldn’t have happened. You should have been given the opportunity to see and hold your child. You were given piss-poor care.

      • Gail E Crandall

        so sorry, they didn’t have a right to do that to you or your baby

    • Holly

      I lost my son at 19 weeks as well. My doctor cried when he had to tell me my baby had died in my tummy. My body fought labor to get him out. When they did, he looked just like that. I’m glad they got pictures. I didn’t even get his tiny foot prints.

      • Jamie

        So sorry for your loss. Glad to hear there are still some good and compassionate doctors in the world.

        • Lilian

          There are many – you just have to find them. :-)

      • prolifemama

        Holly, perhaps you could check with your local prolife pregnancy help center to see if they keep a current list of prolife OBG/Gyns in your area. You could also call OptionLine, a worldwide help network (google them for their number), and they can help you find prolife docs in your area.
        I will hold you close in prayer always.

      • Derpderpderp

        Boo-hoo. There are people with actual problems in the world. People lose their living, breathing, feeling, thinking pets everyday, and nobody gives them the same kind of sympathy they give to dumb cunts like you. You didn’t experience any kind of “loss”, you just had a heavy period.

    • equality.

      Because some women get pregnant after being brutally raped. Your closed mindedness makes me sick as well.

      • Amy

        I’m sorry, but do two wrongs make a right? Why is it ok to take the life of a child because something terrible and awful happened to you? Yes it is a horrible situation for the mother, but she has the opportunity to bless someone else by choosing to do adoption if she doesn’t want to keep the child. I understand that it would be a very painful for the mother, but there is never justification for taking the life of an innocent child.

        • bj

          Do you not understand yet that abortion is murder? I am not talking about miscarriage. We lost one at 12 weeks. It was awful. But plain out abortion is YOU killing your child. There are thousands of couples that are unable to conceive who would love to give your baby a home and love, if you cannot. For God sake do not kill it.

          • Sarah Jarman-Watrous

            I think that is total crap! Abortion is not murder. We wanted and loved our baby. We LOST her just like anyone else who miscarried. The only difference is we terminated the pregnancy because our daughter had less than 10% survival in gestation. Meaning she was going to die inside me, and I would have had to deliver a stillborn baby. I think unless you’re in the situation, you’re not truly sure what is going to happen or what you would choose to do. I feel incredible sadness for women, myself included, who have had to make that decision regardless if it’s due to medical issues or other reasons. I think generally it’s assumed that the woman doesn’t love her child, is cruel or heartless.. that is not the case for me. I loved my baby and wanted her. She was very very sick, and it would have been more painful for her to enter this world than to leave it… she had at 10% survival in utero. I know I could not do what this woman did and deliver a stillborn baby. I know it would change me to my core. I think this is a hot topic, and people will be all over the spectrum. I know that people have deep feelings. I know that there maybe women who want to talk about it, but usually the general reaction is to keep silent. I will never give up my voice, and remain silent. I truly hope those who are in pain, are given peace, surrounded by love and life…

            As women, we are stronger if we remain together rather than tear each other apart. Hugs!!! Be kind and gentle to yourself and others….

          • Hannah Cushman

            My mothers doctor told her it was impossible to have any children and she had three , being kind would be giving your child a shot at life instead of cutting it off completely

          • LorFalcon

            You’re a nasty person. Whining and harassing BORN people who make hard choices doesn’t make you any better of a person. Get over yourself.

          • were4life

            Name-calling doesn’t change the fact that the child in the womb is a person who is killed by abortion. I believe in equality for people who live in a different location than I do. How about you? Do you believe that you are superior and can kill someone else based on where you are in space at any given point and time? If you are helpless and in a hospital bed, does that give someone the right to kill you?

          • margaretbugg

            How is she a nasty person. She did not say anything mean. What is your problem?

          • DifferentSense

            You’re confusing separate issues. Your mother was told that she was infertile. Her trying to have children anyway does not immediately have the risk of harming someone.

            In this case by the sounds of it, this person who got her fetus aborted was probably looking at the 90% that says the fetus painfully starves to death or dies of dehydration INSIDE HER WOMB.(im making assumption about the illness though). Or that the fetus gets a much faster significantly less painful death through abortion.

          • Susan Thomas

            Agreed!

          • were4life

            Every child deserves the chance to live his/her life to the fullest, even if that means dying a peaceful, natural death in the womb – which is ultimately preferable to being chopped up while alive. The pathologists who have to examine these aborted children have nightmares and throw up just from witnessing the awful grimaces of pain on these children’s faces. You never know how long *your* child may live. Doctors are often wrong. Bella Santorum was supposed to die at or before birth too, but she is now 8 years old. There are many children like this – children who defy the odds. Doctors can only predict – they can’t know the future for certain, and why would you cut your child’s life short – why wouldn’t you want to give your child a beautiful life. There is a beautiful sense of natural grief and healing when a child dies naturally. When you issue the death sentence, you are the executioner – you are hiring a hit man to do the job, and so there is a lot of hurt, anger, and unresolved grief, and a lot of justification of one’s actions. You have to face the fact that what you did was wrong, sinful, and you have to ask God for forgiveness and mercy. In the Sacrament of Penance, He will forgive you and wash away your sin. Have you heard of Project Rachel?

          • Nick

            Sorry for your loss, but ummm yeah…you killed your baby based on a percentage. It’s black and white…if your baby is alive one moment, then dead the next because someone ended it’s life, then that’s murder, because your baby is a human being, a person, and taking the life of another human being is called murder.

            You made it all about you. YOU didn’t or “couldn’t” deliver a stillborn baby, so you hedged you child’s life and your conscience on a percentage to make you feel better.

            What if you KNEW your child had a 10% chance of surviving a car accident at the age of two, would you abort the child or take the chance of them surviving and enjoy what time you do have with them?

          • Pro Choice

            so what? Let her do what she wants. I didn’t know it was your decision to judge. If we are going by the bible or whatever (speaking as an atheist here) it’s only God’s judgement that matters.

          • jdww

            Speaking as a Christian, only the Almighty can judge. Yes you are right Pro Choice. I don’t believe in abortion , even in rape. BUT i’m not going to bash or talk down to woman who aborts the pregnancy. Babies adopt out faster than older children, so I would choose adoption

          • Pro Choice

            I wasn’t talking down to women who abort. I’m okay with it. They are exercising their own right to chose under the law.

          • Laura Clark

            In life, we need to not only consider man’s law but above all else, having morals, dignity and grace! Humans’s days left on this earth are not many because of the decline in morals truthfully. This is factual and not coming from someone who only wants to win an argument or for whatever reason has to argue your point! God gives all of His creation the right to life at the moment of conception. But faith in Him is completely our free will and our consequences for living lives that has no room for His love, guidance, is what we will face. And this declining of morals is proof enough to see that people are choosing evil and not God and that my friend is real tragedy.

          • disqus_c7ds1PDfrR

            I wish someone would argue pro life without using God or putting religion in the mix. Honestly, we aren’t even arguing about the same thing. People who are pro life are arguing that Abortion is wrong and murder. Pro choice people argue that abortion just is.

          • Laura Clark

            And I am arguing why it is wrong.

          • Laura Clark

            Um and most of us pro-lifers do not agree with abortion because God does not want us to murder. It is not right, immoral. Kapeesh?

          • Pro Choice

            This implies that the only reason a woman would want to get an abortion is to avoid raising a child, and that isn’t the case. Depending on the circumstances, the mere act of having a child in a hospital can cost between $3,000 and $37,000 in the United States. Giving birth is dangerous, too: In the United States, pregnancy complications are the sixth most common cause of death for women between the ages of 20 and 34.

            Even before birth, there are costs to pregnancy. In addition to the whole carrying another human being around in your stomach for nine months thing, many women, particularly teens, are shunned and shamed for their pregnancies — not only by friends, families, employers, and classmates, but also by advertisements in the subway. There’s also the risk of violent retribution from abusive partners and parents.

            In short, there are a lot of reasons a woman might seek an abortion. Adoption doesn’t address all of them.

          • margaretbugg

            You know in this day and age there are so many ways to keep from getting pregnant and abortion should not be used as birth control. So if you don’t want to have a child use your brain and use birth control, better yet have a little self control.

          • Pro Choice

            Birth control fails on the account of human error. I’m sorry if you missed that memo that half the planet seems to understand, except for everyone on here it looks like.

          • Amanda

            Do you hear how stupid you sound babies don’t choose to be convinced it’s your fault by making the decisions to have sexual relations while not protecting yourselves from a potential pregnancy. Not being emotionally or finically ready to have a child is not a valid excuse to have an abortion if your not ready for the consequences of your actions then don’t have unprotected sex!! If your not emotionally or finically ready for a child then how can you make the clear choice to have sexual relations. save your body from abortion and unwanted/unplanned pregnancies by being on some kind of birth control(pill, IUD,ect) abortion is not birth control it is murder of an innocent person not because of anything they did but because you were too stupid to be on REAL birth control and your polartner

          • Pro Choice

            You’re asserting that giving birth is the “responsible” choice during pregnancy, but that’s just your opinion. I’d argue that if a mother knows she won’t be able to provide for her child, it’s actually more responsible to have an abortion and, in doing so, prevent a whole lot of undue suffering and misery.

            But let’s look at this argument a bit further. If you think getting an abortion is “avoiding responsibility,” that implies that it’s a woman’s responsibility to bear a child if she chooses to have sex. That sounds suspiciously like you’re dictating what a woman’s role and purpose is, and a lot less like you’re making an argument about the life of a child.

            Not everyone has easy access to contraception, nor does everyone have a good enough sex education class to know how to use it or where to obtain it. But let’s just suppose, for the sake of argument, that everyone had access to free contraception and knew how to use it correctly.

            Even then, no contraception is 100-percent effective. Presumably, you oppose abortions even in cases where contraception fails (and it does sometimes fail, even when used perfectly). If that’s true, you’re saying that, by merely choosing to have sex — with or without a condom — a woman becomes responsible for having a child. And that’s a belief that has everything to do with judging a woman’s behavior, and nothing to do with the value of life.

          • Laura Clark

            Whether contraception is used or not, whether birth control, NO not the killing form, is used or not, the point is, if you dare to use the “parasitic” brain God gave oneself, you may think about every single consequence that may result from sex! That in turn, should allow one to consider because you just said ” condoms are not 100% effective, you could become impregnated with a parasitic blood sucker (still cringing by your description), and should than in turn help you make a better, more educated decision for your body, your life and most definitely the life of your, and this time in God’s description, unborn baby’s beautiful, delicate blessed life! I know so many young women, but actually with a young girl’s mentality, who use birth control as a sick, disgusting form of birth control! So, so tragic. And if you want to use that since I am a Christian so I shouldn’t judge you, my beliefs are all facts from God Himself so you will have no influence on them, period….

          • margaretbugg

            Not our decision to judge – yes if she wants to kill her baby, she can but by any name – murder is murder. Killing a child is killing a child at any stage of growth.

          • Pro Choice

            Maybe to you. But not all people few it as such. Up until a certain point children are parasites that feed off of your blood and nutrients to survive–same as a ring worm or tape worm. You would get rid of a tape worm, right? Well doesn’t it have a right to life just like you? Crazy, how those arguments can intertwine.

          • margaretbugg

            After children are born they still need to be totally taken care of, sorta like living parasites because if you don’t take total care of them they will die. Very same difference except one is more developed than the other. Do you realize that at the moment of conception that child already has all of its potential? Everything needed to develop its personality, likes and dislikes? It does have a right to live, it is alive not dead, just in early stages of development. Go ahead and try to fool yourself if you want by calling the baby a parasitic tapeworm.

          • Pro Choice

            I’m not fooling myself. I’m presenting an argument. I’m argue for all of the people that believe in pro choice, despite if they would actually get an abortion or not.

          • Pro Choice

            Also are you saying abortion policy should be influenced by how good of a person a fetus ends up becoming? If that’s the case, what if Joseph Stalin or Pol Pot had been aborted?

          • margaretbugg

            where did that come from?

          • Laura Clark

            Wow, you are so, so twisted mentally and I feel so sorry for you. I apologize but the way you describe a human life growing inside of a woman is just to me, and I suspect to many others as well, filthy, Godless, undescribably one of the saddest terms for describing a beautiful, unborn child, that I have ever heard!! Please take some advice and pray to God to give you grace, understanding of His love not only for yourself but all of His creation! Including, although it hurts for me to even type your description, a blood sucking parasite!! How could you? You are a female, right? Though that really makes no difference because if you were in fact male having used the terms you use to describe a Wonderful blessing, a human life, you still were inside of your own mother’s womb and she chose to keep you and raise you. I assume she loved you and even if you had a terrible childhood, it is a moral obligation to have morals! Especially concerning taking the life of an innocent human being and on top of that choosing life for our OWN offspring that is inside our womb! I apologize, there is so much I would love to say to you but not to hurt you, honestly but to help you. If tough love hurts, well excuse me but sometimes it may help to guide you to God…. Please open the Holy Bible. Do not waste time. You will be in my prayers.

          • margaretbugg

            Pro choice, I do not want to argue with you but let me try and give you something to think about. You call that baby in the womb a parasite. Well from the time a child is born until at least they are out of college their parents provide everything for children. At a point they have to physicially fed them and clothe them. This is a parasitic relationship. Would it then be ok for that parent to decide when the child is around 6 months or so that it is inconvient for them to take care of this child, too expensive and they are not emotionally ready for a child and then to just kill it? Same difference except the 6 month old is more developed then the baby in the womb. They are both as alive as can be and both as dependent on their parents as they can be. I do not judge anyone who has a abortion. It is not my call but I am totally against it. You are an atheist and I really do not understand how anyone can look at the world, can look at a new born baby and not realize there is something higher than man. There are miracles every day if you just open your eyes to them. Life is not by chance.

          • Kathi J

            Anyone can fulfill the needs of an already born baby, only one person can provide for an embryo or fetus — huge difference.

          • margaretbugg

            I don’t know what your point is.

          • margaretbugg

            At a point Pro Choice, you have to take responsibility for your actions. You do not seem to want to do that. If you are going to have sex, there is the consequence that you could get pregnant. You do not want to really take the responsibility for that, your answer is you will just kill it and not be bothered. But sooner or later there will be consequences from that. What you reap, you really always do sow.

          • Laura Clark

            Excellent choice of advice!

          • Susan Thomas

            Yep, and she will be judged for committing murder as well as all personnel involved. You say Bible! I will talk!
            Exodus 23:7
            Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.
            Exodus 21:22-25
            “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

          • Lydia

            Well, Nick, that’s not YOUR damn business. People have their own REASONS for THEIR choices. It’s not for anyone else to tell tell them they made the wrong decision.

          • Jj

            If you had a 10% survival rate, should the medical system give up on you and terminate you?

          • pumpkinpjays

            You are right, Sarah: unless you’ve been through it, you don’t know the pain. People say the most heartless things, because they don’t understand what you’ve gone through. I’ve assisted many women in your situation; it’s a tough day every time. I can’t imagine how awful it is for the woman/couple/family going through it. I’m sorry you had to.

          • Mary Lee

            Gosh, maybe some of us really DO know what we’re talking about because we went through it.

            But hey, that’s okay! Just kill your children! Aw, it’s fine! Anything you want to do is fine! Moral relativism is great! Little baby boys and girls with their own little bodies are just garbage, right? But yeah, tough decision. Sometimes we just have to kill people who get in our way, right?

          • pumpkinpjays

            Let me know when you’re ready for a discussion, Mary Lee. In the meantime, enjoy high school!

          • maxib

            When you get an abortion they rip the baby apart limb by limb!!! How the hell is the justifiable? ITS IN NO WAY HUMANE IN ANYWAY!!!

          • jessicaaitchison

            Please go educate yourself on how abortion works before commenting things like that. I’m not sure what kind of propaganda you’ve been exposed to but I can guarantee that what you are saying is inaccurate and probably for the purpose of spreading someone’s idea rather than correct information. Thank you.

          • Mary Lee

            When babies are aborted–even when they’re really really small, even!!!–they are put in biohazard bags where their flesh rots. In some clinics (the ones who think that regulations are MEAN and UNFAIR, even though tattoo parlors are more regulated than abortion mills), the baby’s remains are put into the garbage disposal.

            The bigger babies, after rotting a while, are put into an incinerator, which is kept at a distance because the smell of the babies’ burning flesh is horrible.

            So, if a baby son or daughter is deemed unwanted or inconvenient, he or she is nothing more than garbage.

            You should maybe go to an abortion mill and watch one. If you can watch one without crying or vomiting, then you might be without a soul. If you can perform one without crying or vomiting, then you might be an abortionist.

          • jessicaaitchison

            Hi Mary! While I appreciate your opinion, I think you may also be a little mislead on how abortion clinics* (despite your beliefs, it is not in fact a mill. That insinuates a much more negative connotation. Please use proper terminology.) or hospitals work. I think you may want to do some more research before you start throwing facts like this around. As well, your rebuttal in your second paragraph about cremation has many factual errors. Educate yourself.
            As for your last paragraph, I think you are confusing my medical knowledge with my lack or not of a soul. Which frankly, isn’t even an argument. And I am not an abortionist. That implies that I am going around and trying to force women to get abortions. Does forcing my beliefs on someone like that seem wrong to you? Good. Because that’s exactly what the pro-life movement is doing. It’s called pro-choice for a reason.

          • Mary Lee

            Thank you for your calm reply.

            I’m sorry the language bothers you; but as a writer, I like to call things what they are. I was pro-choice too once. I believed all the lies you believe. I said all the things you have said. I would have answered my comment in the same way.

            I was a reluctant pro-life convert. But when I saw what a horror abortion is–and every single aspect of it–I felt terrible guilt for supporting something so blatantly evil. It was hard to admit I was wrong, and I hid behind the lies and slogans and excuses for as long as I could.

            My comment wasn’t fiction. It is simply the ugly truth.

            Abortion mills is the correct term; that is where the money is made. That is where there is a revolving door of confused, scared, sobbing mothers who are told that aborting their son or daughter is the best thing to do. They are lied to about fetal development. Euphemisms are employed (“uterine contents”) ….Then there’s that room, after the abortion is done, where the sobbing girls are given ginger ale and cookies, but no counsel. They are rushed in, rushed out, and their babies’ bodies rot in a biohazard bag.

          • margaretbugg

            Actually I was shown how an abortion happens. Have you ever watched how it happens? Educate yourself.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            I actually work in health care and often volunteer my time and effort to help women in difficult, sometimes high risk pregnancies. I’m quite well educated on the different abortion procedures. D&C and D&E abortions use suction and instruments to remove the fetus, and as is more often the case with D&E abortions, that involves breaking or twisting limbs off and cutting the baby apart.

          • Kathi J

            Not in 98% or more of all abortions, you are confusing the vast majority of abortions with the uncommon later term abortions.

          • margaretbugg

            I have to tell you I disagree. I had a friend who had to have open heart surgery when she was pregnant. Her doctors told her she needed to have an abortion because the child would not survive and if it did it would be severely retarded. She refused to have an abortion. That child was born and was perfect and had not one thing wrong with her. She is now happy, healthy and a mother. It is not up to you. There is a higher power in control. There is always the chance that the doctors are wrong and your baby is going to be fine. my friend had her child at the University of Kentucky Medical Center and the docs there called her a miracle child and she is. Killing is killing – if a child is alive and if they are growing and changing they have to be alive, it is killing.

          • Pro Choice

            Maybe, in your opinion. But it won’t change the law 3 out of 10 women have abortions in the US by the time they are 45. As long as people are wanting their right to choose, it will always be something that happens. Don’t force your opinions on people, just like I won’t try to convince you of my own.

          • margaretbugg

            I am not forcing my opinion on anyone, just stating what I believe as you are. You can have all the abortions you want but I don’t want my tax dollars to pay for it.

          • Pro Choice

            I’ll keep that in mind next time I go to have one. Thanks.

          • Pro Choice

            Also by that rationale, America also shouldn’t have a military, since that’s funded by taxes, and some taxpayers find American foreign policy morally disagreeable. Also, the Hyde Amendment prevents most public funds from going toward abortions. But that’s a moot point, because these are two separate arguments. Believing that abortion should be legal doesn’t require you to also believe that taxpayer dollars should fund abortions.

          • margaretbugg

            But you really never know for sure. Doctors are not gods. I have a friend who was told to have an abortion when she was pregnant because she had to have open heart surgery. Her doctors told her the baby would not live and if it did it would be severely retarded. Well she had the open heart surgery when she was pregnant and then gave birth to a beautiful healthy baby girl that was perfect. Not trying to make you feel bad but doctors are not god and they do not really know for sure what the future holds. There are tons of people who have been told they have months to live only to live years longer.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            But you did deliver a stillborn baby. I can’t think of any abortion method that doesn’t result in that.

            I’m sad over what you missed. I’ve helped a young lady through a pregnancy with a child she knew wasn’t likely to live long enough to come home. She was pressured to abort, but resolved to hang on as long as she could, because while she was pregnant, the baby enjoyed a good quality of life. Sadly, the little guy passed away within moments of being born, but because his mother didn’t give up on him, he got hugs and kisses before he died. Also, his mother has accumulated a whole pregnancy’s worth of happy memories with him, including playing “poke and kick” and “the flashlight game,” playing music for him, and delighting at the proof that he could see and hear and show his own unique personality.

            I won’t apologize for coming across as harsh for this, though. Aborting a baby just because he/she has a disability is ableist, not to mention foolish beyond even my ability to understand. I miscarried at ten weeks and held the remains of my child in my hand. I can understand not wanting to deliver a stillborn child. But it takes a special kind of stupidity to try to avoid delivering a dead child by abortion- which results in the deliberate delivery of a dead child.

          • Susan Thomas

            That’s where you put your faith in the wrong hands.

          • Kathi J

            Do you know what the definition of murder is? The illegal, unlawful killing of one person by another person. Not only is abortion legal and lawful, embryos and fetuses are not legal or actual persons either. Being human and having the potential to become a person are not the same as being a person.

        • Realist

          I’m assuming you’ve never been sexually assulted? No? Ok then don’t make your own holy judgement calls on what a woman should or shouldn’t do after facing trama such as that.

          • Hannah Cushman

            Assuming only makes you an ass and rape or not killing your baby doesn’t make your problems go away

          • margaretbugg

            I think killing your child makes your problems worse. YOu then have that on you.

          • were4life

            Being a victim of rape does not qualify for being able to issue a death sentence upon an innocent person.

          • DifferentSense

            Are you responsible if an innocent homeless person who breaks into your house dies after a harsh winter because you would not let that person stay in your home? That’s what we are talking about, if an innocent person must be forced to have resources leeched from her body to house another she gave no consent to.

            Incestual rape is disgustingly common, would you really want to burden a child’s existence with both the weight of being the product of a heinous evil action and with the genetic diseases made more likely by incest?

            The abortion debate being based on the vague and undefinted idea of personhood is trying to shoot a tiny target in a pitch plack room. You see technically a fertilized egg is both many possible people and one single person if we are to assume a person has personhood at that stage.

            Are we committing murder if we do not give birth to twins, triplets? If a twin shifts in such a way that their umbilical cord strangles their twin do we charge that baby with manslaughter or murder? Is that baby “issuing a death sentence on an innocent person”? If the mother dies in childbirth?

            If you read enough articles about the actuality of pregnancy, you could even promote the argument that abortion is self defense if you give the fetus the moral weight of being a person responsible for its actions.

            I really don’t like this idea of personhood because at the end of the day instead of doing things to make it easier for a woman to have a child (reduce the commonality of rape, proper health education, promoting living in peace and elevating standards for common decency) we focus on shaming the mother for destroying a ‘person’ and we give a fetus a ridiculous moral weight to their actions.

            I hate to be this person, but who says that being born is better than being unborn?

          • Christina

            Abortion in cases of incestual rape is usually forced on the girl by her abuser… and serves to continue to hide the ongoing abuse that could have been brought to light by an actual pregnancy.

            Most women who have been raped do not get abortions. For whatever their reasons, I believe seeing beauty and life come from something soul shattering and like death can help bring healing to the raped woman whether she keeps the child or chooses adoption. Death from death gives nothing but death.

            I won’t judge a woman for choosing abortion after rape… its traumatizing and people like you make it sound like a good choice for a confused and hurt woman. But don’t be fooled into thinking your way is the compassionate one.

          • DifferentSense

            There is probably something very life affirming about housing that desperate homeless person who broke into your house. Like you said, you wouldn’t blame a woman for aborting if she were raped. There are also cases where the criminal action of forcing an abortion occurs, but the question I was trying to get at is if she by her own choice has the abortion is she really responsible for it when she never consent to participating in the activity that caused it.

            Also I sound compassionate somewhere? I thought I sounded more unsure, because no matter how you slice it, abortion is a very morally gray area if you truly understand the complexities of its moral implications.

          • margaretbugg

            Yes I believe you are responsible for the abortion even if you did not consent to the sex. IT is a different matter. You have to know you are killing your child if you get an abortion no matter how that child was conceived. The conception is besides the point at that point. A child’s life is at stake.

          • Dawn Heath Whitcomb

            A rape victim doesn’t need to add the agony of knowing that they ended the life of a child…it compounds the grief, though relief may first be experienced. They could bless an infertile couple with adoption and turn their horrific, violent tragedy into something good.

            As for abortion because of truly endangering the life of the mother, that has never been illegal. It was between the woman and her doctor. Back in the 1950’s, a family member in declining health, following the birth of her second child was told by her doctor that if she got pregnant again, they would have to terminate the pregnancy because her body could not withstand another pregnancy…Also, I’ve known women with tubal pregnancies, in which case the baby cannot survive (he/she can’t grow to term in the Fallopian tube) and the woman can bleed to death.

          • Cherie Allgood

            Doctors have been proven wrong in many of these cases. Many women have proceeded with pregnancies despite the doctor’s advice. As far as tubal pregnancy, that is really hard. I hope someday there is a way to save these babes.

          • prolifemama

            The biggest “moral implication” of abortion is that every successful one ends the life of an innocent human being.

          • Pro Choice

            With every abortion argument there is this isssue of personhood. You argue that abortion is murder because it’s a person. Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact.
            Religious communities have differing ideas on the definition of “person” or when abortion is morally justified. In the Canadian courts, however, a fetus has consistently been found not to be a person with legal rights.

          • Cherie Allgood

            Because the Canadians are wrong. They’re wrong about a lot of things. They put pastors in jail for preaching from the Bible as well.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            They cal the truth a hate crime in Canada . :-(

          • Valerie Finnigan

            “Personhood” apart from the state of being an organism of the species homo sapiens is not a biological concept at all. Biology makes it abundantly clear that the life of a human being begins at conception. Any other definition of personhood is just a philosophical guess with no basis in science.

          • Martin Øverby

            Biology also dictates that life isn’t viable until it can live outside its gestation environment.
            Non-viable life is by biology’s own rules not life.

            You have to be a viable lifeform to be a person — something that the fetus described in this article was not.

          • prolifemama

            Martin, viability isn’t the measure of the unborn child’s ability to live outside the womb; rather it is the capacity of current medical technology to support premature infants. A decade ago, that line was drawn at 34 weeks. Today, because of medical advances, 22-week-old babies have survived being born early.

            Medical technology is NEVER the measure of an unborn child’s humanity, or the little one’s right to live. It is a measure of the strong’s desire to assist the weak.

            It is instead a measure of OUR humanity.

          • Martin Øverby

            I find that to be incorrect. Our humanity is indeed objectively verified by medical technology; we know we are human by looking at each other, as much as medical technology lets us see we are human on a genetic level.

            Humanity as a philosophy is an immeasurable fallacy; a human does what a human mind wants. That is what your ‘humanity’ means. Therefore everything a human does, represents their individual humanity.
            Which can also be measured with medical technology, as our individualism and decision-making and… pretty much everything we do, that defines us as a human species, is the result of a complicated chain of events involving a combination of chemicals, electrical signals, the human metabolism, brain matter, neuron patterns & minerals.
            You can literally chart out a person’s entire humanity from the slightest little breath to the mechanics of the most complex and challenging mental gymnastics using medical measuring equipment.

            Each contraction of your muscles is the result of a chemical release that happens the moment your brain (that is you) decides that that is the muscle you want to move. Every little neuron in your brain contains a vast amount of power and experience that makes you the person that you are today, and that information defines how your brain functions, to how intensely it works when doing certain tasks. It too relies on chemical releases & electrical impulses, without which the brain would not function and you would not be able to boast about our ‘humanity’ simply because yours would be gone.

            And don’t forget that the body’s sole purpose in life is to protect the brain, and the brain can ‘die’ and leave your body intact and operational, much like a running car without a driver. And like with a driverless car, there is little point to keeping it running if there is nobody there to drive it.
            At that point you may as well just turn it off, because nobody’s in there anyway.

            So don’t come to me and preach that medical science isn’t a measure of humanity & right to live; it totally is, and it totally does.

            Moving on from that to the viability of unborn children…

            One of the most common arguments I hear in the abortion debate is the lines of, “it is not our right to decide who lives and dies” or alternatively “it is not our right to play God.”

            So then I present to you with the following question in return: How is keeping an otherwise unviable being that would not be able to survive outside the womb under normal circumstances, not “deciding who lives and dies” or “playing God?”

            It is a poorly thought out and easily rebuttable argument for pro-life that I’ve never managed to understand. It’s about as hypocritical as it gets, and very few people call them on it.
            You cannot preach one thing and then practice another.

            “Abortion is murder”?
            Not if the fetus wouldn’t be able to survive outside the womb.
            Oh but it does survive inside a man-made incubator? Well then you’re playing God/deciding that it gets to live, effectively doing precisely what you condemn the opposition for.

            I frankly don’t feel strongly either way; as far as I am concerned, we cannot have one without the other. If we absolutely have to have and use the technology that can keep a lifeform that is yet biologically incapable of sustained life alive to the point that it is, then we absolutely have to have the option to be able to abort an unborn child as well.

            At the very least until someone can present to the world an objective argument that explains clearly why we cannot have both, that is based on science and fact, not man-made philosophy and morality & ethics. If the pro-life people would stop harassing women who choose abortion as well, then that would go a long way in furthering the pro-life cause because most people are like me in that respect: If you harass me for it, then I’m definitely going to do it.

            Case in point: A vegetarian harassed me because I was buying a small cheeseburger just yesterday. I left the gas station with a large double bacon cheeseburger.
            Seriously. Stop protesting outside clinics, stop harassing people who undergo these procedures. At best, you’re only going to make someone cry. At worst, you’re only ENCOURAGING the “legal murder of infants” that you so vehemently try to protest.
            Just like how that vegetarian accidentally encouraged me to eat not one, but TWO animals in one go by harassing me as I was buying a different type.

            In any case, I’ve digressed from the original topic at hand.

            At the end of the day, my point is that you can’t approach the pro-life vs pro-choice from an emotional and subjective standpoint; you need to approach it in an objective and clinical manner.
            The African Americans gained their freedom by proving indisputably that they were no less human than the white man.
            The Americans gained their freedom by proving indisputably that they were different from the British & that they weren’t going to tolerate their conduct anymore.
            Mozart proved he was a better composer than anyone else at his time, beyond all doubt, and gained recognition for it. If he were not objectively a better composer then he wouldn’t have gained the fame that he got.

            This is not the 1100s when you could pretty much just say that “this is that” & you’d get away with it.
            You need to prove indisputably that you are right, and you must do so without cheating, and within the boundaries of science so that the results can be recreated by anyone who may decide to test it. It must be able to stand up against criticism and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt: this is how it is, and there is nothing that can change it.
            And be wary of human perception, for it can provide you with incorrect results. Such as the sky, which is in fact not blue; it is black.

            Just… for God’s sake, if one side wants to convince someone (like me, for instance) to join them, then you’ve got to make a proper argument. Morality, humanity & heartfelt speeches are, and will always be useless against cold hard facts.
            And that is a fact.

          • prolifemama

            @MartinOverby – I will try to answer many more of your points, but for now I would like to say, that we are all more than the sum of our parts. There are facts that are not provable by science, nor measureable by technology, yet still they remain true. It depends upon what one is willing to accept as “proof.”

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            My niece Had her baby at 6 months . Her daughter was a little over a pound , Her baby lived . they did everything to save her . :-)

          • were4life

            A decade ago, we could also save babies at 26 weeks and even 24 weeks. Two decades ago we could save 26 & 28 weekers & even some at 26 weeks. Babies have been born prematurely and saved at earlier and earlier ages. The earliest has been 22 weeks 3 days, I believe, but most hospitals refuse to save babies until they are 24 weeks, even though they can survive at 23 weeks.

          • prolifemama

            @were4life – All you said is quite true. The sad thing is the reason for hospitals’ refusal to provide life support for these little ones – they’re afraid of lawsuits if the babies die, afraid they’ll be held responsible if the life support isn’t adequate.

            The saddest thing is that parents’ wishes aren’t paramount in such cases. They should be.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Not true in the least. Cite one single source on biology that makes such a requirement. You’ll find none. The fact of the matter is that no life is viable outside of its proper environment.

            Walter was a person. You, however, may be a person, but you have the compassion of a clod.

          • Martin Øverby

            No, Walter was an underdeveloped fetus whose body functions were unable to sustain the body outside its gestation environment.
            He never got the chance to be a person. His heart, hands, feet, brain & other organs may have been present, but they were only at their early stages of development & did not have enough capacity to sustain him outside his gestation environment. And you can look this up on Wikipedia, or go find a book in the library about the human fetal development, or just observe what happens if you take a fetus younger than ~21ish weeks old out of the womb & put it on a table.
            It will most likely not live for more than 3-4 minutes at most.
            That is reproducible fact. That is biology’s way of saying, “This is too soon; it is not ready to live, and now it must die.”

            Compassion has no place in opinions as far as I’m concerned; education does. You know that 2 + 2 equals 4. You know how far your car will travel before it stops when you hit the brakes.
            You know this because it’s reproducible, and you’re never going to get a different result no matter how hard you try to change it.
            You know that if something can’t sustain life outside gestation, then it is by definition unviable.

            And you’re right; life is not viable outside its proper environment. That is why Walter was unviable life. That is why Walter died; biology dictated that he could not live.

            Moreover, just because I can compartmentalize for the sake of presenting objective and factual opinions instead of marring them with inaccurate emotional misconceptions, doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. It just means if you’re able to provide scientific, indisputable evidence to the contrary, you’ll be able to win the arguments we’ll have because I won’t lock down and batten all hatches and blindly scream “no no no” when I am refuted.
            Give me cold hard facts and not wishful thinking, and you will find that I’m quite willing to admit I’m wrong.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Cite biological proof that Walter was not a person.

          • Ravin Rodrigue

            He was a person he had a heart beat and had 10 fingers and 10 toes how can you say that i dont care what ( cite biological) says he was a baby whos life was take away too soon

          • Martin Øverby

            Oh no.
            I challenged you to disprove me first; I won’t do the work for you when my impression of you so far is that you’re approaching this matter as a principial thing rather than a factual one. If I start citing to you the proof, you will dismiss it for being written from a prejudicial standpoint to begin with and we will be right back to square one.

            So at this point this isn’t even a matter of wanting to win the argument; I want you to prove to me that you have the scientific knowhow needed to make this case (NOT the moral or ethical knowhow; I don’t care about those), and then I will start taking you seriously.
            Give me your cold hard facts, give me your sources. I will for the sake of this argument assume that all your sources are unbiased & treat them as such, so use whatever you like.

            This is your chance to potentially convert me to a pro-lifer, and if the case is solid then convincing me that you are right shouldn’t be at all hard.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Elective abortion takes the life of a living human being- biologically, a living organism of the species homo sapiens. The human fetus meets all the requirements to qualify as a living human organism as opposed to a part of another human being, an inanimate object, or a living organism of another species. And you can consult any high school or college biology textbook on this.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            BTW, if you do the same to a full term infant, the baby will die.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Seems he lost his Humanity and his Human Kindness .How sad .People like him Dehumanize the unborn .

          • were4life

            Amazing! Why then, do we spend millions in our NICUs and in hospitals for mothers on bedrest? We are saving “non-livea” in our neonatal units. These “non-lives” also require burials at funeral homes and death certificates.

          • Martin Øverby

            Simple: Because we are humans and we are compelled by our intellect to anthropomorphize our basic biological functions & make them into something more than what they really are in order to effectively function in the world.

            We do this because for most people, their psyche would crumble if our intellect accepted the biological imperative as an ultimate, unchangeable fact. It is both a blessing and a curse of our intelligence that we constantly battle the natural ways of life, for nature is not how *we* want it to be.

            And that is essentially the bottom line of pro vs anti anything arguments: we anthropomorphize a problem because it is something that we don’t want it to be. And we’re not going to be happy until we change it, even if it flies in the face of all that is natural.

            Saying that it’s okay to intervene to save a “life” that in reality shouldn’t have been saved (in the natural order of things, premature babies would usually die without human intervention) but it’s not okay to intervene if it takes one in this instance, is like drinking water in a glass and a wooden cup from the same source, and claiming that the water in the glass is cleaner: It’s not an empirical fact, it’s an anthropomorphized opinion based on your upbringing as a person, where you’d most likely been drinking water from a glass your entire life. The wooden cup doesn’t have anything inherently wrong with it, you’re just not used to the idea of it and so it skews your impression of the water.

            That is what this argument is: trying to prove that water from the same source is somehow cleaner in the other container.

            So to summarize… Basically we spend millions on this stuff because we’re intelligent enough to be above moderately psychologically affected by the death of a fellow human and its potential spawn.

          • prolifemama

            Pro Choice: Personhood is neither a religious belief nor a biological fact. It’s a legal status bestowed by a governmental body which carries with it specified legal rights and protections. In other words, born (powerful) human beings decide if their unborn (defenseless) counterparts deserve to receive the legal protection that they themselves enjoy.

            The whole point of the prolife movement, identical to the U.S. Civil War-era abolitionists, is to grant personhood to every human being, regardless of age, residence, race, creed, gender, health,disability, and any and all other factors upon which negative discrimination can be based.

            For any human being’s rights to be of worth, all human beings’ rights must be acknowledged and protected.

            “If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life.” — Albert Schweitzer

          • disqus_c7ds1PDfrR

            Also please educate yourself on the governments ruling on Roe vs. Wade

          • prolifemama

            What’s your “take” on rvw?

          • were4life

            Sha – zam! Way to go, pro-life mama!

          • prolifemama

            Thanks so much, were4life – and right back at you!

          • margaretbugg

            Abortion is a moral decision, not necessarily a religious one. Morally I could not kill a child.

          • prolifemama

            There’s nothing gray about abortion. It’s all blood-red.

          • were4life

            Abortion is intrinsically evil. That means it is never justified or morally right in *any* situation *ever*. No exceptions. There is never any medical reason to willfully destroy an innocent child in the womb – never. Every person has the right to exist and to have the right to life, no matter the disability, no matter how poorly the child is faring, no matter if the child was conceived in the worst possible circumstances. There is no medical condition of the mother which calls for deliberately killing her child in the womb.

          • DifferentSense

            Also I’m curious about what you think on my ramblings about the personhood topic if you wouldn’t mind responding to that as well.

          • margaretbugg

            I also want to say I won’t judge a woman for choosing abortion after rape either but I still believe that punishing an innocent child for something that child had nothing to do with is not the best answer. I could never ever have aborted a child especially after I had one. The feeling of feeling my child inside me was so miraculous. In saying all this I do not believe the government should be able to have any say in it. It is a personal decision for every woman. I do think that at conception all the potential of that person is there, all your DNA, your potential is there. I had a friend that wrote planned parenthood’s book – she was honored in Atlanta a few years ago. I really cared about her even thro we did not see this the same way. She thought I was proabortion because I always said a woman should be have that decision. Then she found out I did not really believe in abortions, that I did not think health insurance should pay for it and especially not since obamacare was enacted. All of a sudden she stopped being my friend. I was very hurt. I never got mad because she sis not feel the same way I did and I knew how she felt and that we did not feel the same way.

          • Kathi J

            Clearly you’ve never been raped. I have by a stranger who broke into my house, held my 16-yr old daughter and me hostage for hours at gunpoint and raped us both. Had I gotten pregnant I couldn’t have gotten to a clinic fast enough for an abortion. It is an act of violence and degradation, it’s not “sex”. He was evil and the thought of carrying his spawn to term makes me violently sick to my stomach and it’s been over 30 years ago. It’s about the woman and only about the woman, forcing her to continue such a pregnancy is nothing less than raping her over and over again.

          • margaretbugg

            Actually I have.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            I have. If you can’t see a baby as anything other than some criminals “spawn,” that’s your problem. And it’s supremely selfish to think it’s only about you when there’s someone else who’s completely innocent involved. You are also forgetting that- as bad as rape is (and don’t dare tell me I’ve “clearly” never been raped)- abortion is also an act of violence and degradation. It is the taking of an innocent human being’s life- by people who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge said person’s humanity.

            Being raped is not an excuse for murder or for holding a man’s crime against an innocent child.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Thank you . A baby through rape has the same value as any other baby . So mane Devalue these babies . It breaks my heart . I agree with you .

          • Kathi J

            Abortion due to rape is about 50% of those known rapes and since rape is the most under-reported crime (estimates at 50-60% never reported) then there’s really no way to judge how many abortions are due to rape.

          • Emily Morales

            I think you gave a faulty analogy. If you force someone out of your house and they are killed by the harsh winter than that is completely by circumstance. It was by an force outside yourself. Now if you made the conscious decision to kill the person because you gave them no consent then that’s an issue. That’s what abortion is. In response to if we do not give birth to twins, or the baby strangles its twin or kills the mother that is completely unintentional and by unfortunate and indirect circumstance. Rape is a very unfortunate situation that should not happen to anyone. But it has been mentioned how a death sentence is an unusual sentence for someone who commits rape. Then why is it justified to pass it on to someone else? Let alone an innocent person.

          • jdww

            The difference: baby and a grownup. The baby never had a chance.

          • All4Him

            I can see your point but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s murder. See the baby isn’t the sin at ALL the baby Is the result not the sin! You say the mother has the right to end a baby’s life but who’s to give the baby a voice. In the same way we were given life why should we have the say that we should end life for someone else? Life is precious and should not be taken lightly. People (doctors, nurses,etc.) Will use the phrases “fetus” ,”mass of cells”, “tissue” and so forth. But the only reason why they give those terms is to justify ending LIFE! By ending a babies life you are ending all the potential they may hold. What if that baby was the next president the next great politician the one to find a cure for cancer the next best writer but (we) wouldn’t know cause you chose to end all that potential. We need to stand up for these children not say it’s ok to end life because it’s convenient. If the mother doesn’t want the baby she should give that baby up for adoption at least then can they have a future. If we choose to end children’s lives because it’s convenient who’s not to say we’re no better than Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini, etc. They killed millions of people and children and Babies. But if we kill children (babies) we are no different than them. We are just as much as murderers than them.

          • Pro Choice

            Okay. First, do not compare the plight of Jews in the Holocaust to abortion. That is WAY over the line. We are talking about an embryo/parasite that attached itself to your uterine wall and using the blood from it to survive, as well as sucking the nutrients from you. That is in no way comparable to Hitler killing Jews in the Holocaust. How offensive, first of all. Second, adoption only goes so far. Best scenario they get a good home. Worst scenario they get beat and abused by foster parents or age out of the system to not go to college and end up on welfare/drugs. No one is killing a “child” because it is convenient for them. Most people do it because they are not emotionally or financially stable to have a child at the moment. Third, following up on the rape comment. I’ve been raped. I can tell you if someone had forced me to keep the child or what have you then I would have resented it and possibly hated to look at it for the rest of my life. Not because of what the child did or didn’t do, but because of what I’m reminded of when I look at it. How they got there. What would I even tell my child when they asked about their dad? They would have to know eventually right? Tell me, what would you say. Lie? Isn’t that a sin?

          • margaretbugg

            You can always give the child up. You do not punish an innocent child because of the way it was conceived. It is not the child’s fault.

          • Pro Choice

            As I’ve said in previous arguments, adoption doesn’t address all the issues at hand.

          • Cherie Allgood

            Adoption is the best for everyone. None of the arguments against adoption make any sense. Can these people see the future and know that children adopted will be abused? Women don’t want their bodies to change or get fat, so they have their babies killed instead of bringing a chance to someone who cannot get pregnant.

          • Marie Schmid Mee

            It addresses a lot of them!!

          • prolifemama

            It certainly answers most of them. If abortion was meant to only handle the “hard cases,” it has now become the default for every case. That’s the result of skewing the argument from what a woman in a crisis pregnancy really needs, to the vapid it’s-none-of-my-business approach of “who decides.”

            Who decides is not nearly as important as what is decided upon. No woman “needs” an abortion. But non-prolifers aren’t willing to provide her with whatever she does need, so that abortion doesn’t seem like her only option.

            Prolifers provide whatever a woman needs so that both she and her child can not only survive, but thrive.

          • Marie Schmid Mee

            My daughter’s best friend is the product of a rape. So glad his Mom chose to keep him. He is a blessing to her and to us all, including his loving stepfather, who is his forever father.

          • margaretbugg

            If you are not financially or emotionally stable enough to have a child how can you be emotionally ready to have a sexual relationship? Of course if you are going to go out and have sex with no thought of the consequences if you happen to get pregnant and are not financially or emotionally ready to raise a child then that is a pretty immature attitude, I am sorry but not of your arguments are good reason to kill a child. If you are not emotionally or financially ready it does amount to a convenient to a person. It is like saying I am not emotionally or financially ready for this so it is inconvenient to me so I will just adopt it. What a selfish attitude. A parasite? I really cannot understand an attitude like the one you have. Have you ever had a child?

          • Pro Choice

            Selfish, maybe. But as I’ve state before pregnancy shouldn’t be treated as a punishment for sex. As of right now, in this stage of my life, my boyfriend and I would agree that abortion is the best decision for the two of us. You can be emotionally ready to make love with someone and not raise a child. Those two things are on completely different spectrums. I know how to take care of myself in terms of sexual relationships. I don’t want children. That doesn’t mean I don’t like other people’s children or that I don’t love my friends’ children or my nieces and nephews. They’re great. Children aren’t something I want for myself and there are lots of people like that. A lot of people religious or otherwise that I know are pro choice. Just because it isn’t something you would choose for yourself doesn’t mean you have to rag on people that do choose it. I have no problem with you keep a child, I just hope you’re in the right financial situation for it.

          • margaretbugg

            So you are saying that you would use abortion as a form of birth control? That is exactly why I am against abortion. Kill a child because you don’t want children? I never particularly wanted children either but after I had my son I was thrilled. It was the most wonderful thing in the world. I don’t not fault people for not wanting children but using abortion as a form of birth control is absolutely utterly immoral. I do not care what you say, that so called “parasite” is a living child, it is growing and if it were not alive it would not grow. No matter what you want to call it you are killing your child. I hope someday you realize that and by the way, I work in the medical field. I have seen a few things, I am not some ignorant person who has no idea what she is talking about.

          • margaretbugg

            And I don’t care that you don’t want children, don’t have a problem with you giving one up to someone who would love it, as a matter of fact with your attitude, that is what I would hope you would do. I do have an issue with the killing of that child.

          • Marie Schmid Mee

            I will take your unwanted child. I waited three years for my son and five years for my daughter and paid tens of thousands of dollars. We had no restrictions on age or ethnicity. Too often the birth parents refuse to relinquish their rights but, at the same time, let the child languish in foster care or abuse or neglect the child. I also don’t understand the high level of pregnancies in middle to upper class women with easy access to contraception. I see it in my social services job every day. Abortion is their birth control.

          • Cherie Allgood

            If you would abort your children, then no, you do not know how to take care of yourself in terms of a sexual relationship.

          • Cherie Allgood

            56 million innocent lives cannot compare to the Holocaust?!!!! That sound just as ignorant as people who say the Holocaust didn’t happen.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Pro-Choice has a very COLD FROZEN heart . :-(

          • Cherie Allgood

            Most of my friends did indeed have their babies aborted simply because it was an inconvenience to carry on the pregnancy and give birth, let alone raise a child. These were well cared for young women. Money was not an issue.

          • Marie Schmid Mee

            adopted children have the highest standard of living of any demographic group in the United States. Stop the stereotypes.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Calling human beings “parasites” who leech blood from “real people” actually makes the abortion/Holocaust comparison seem more fitting, not less. You’ve just switched the group subject to blood libel and denial of their humanity.

          • Harizo Panah Jarquin

            First off it’s not the child’s fault for there mother getting raped 2nd you give up the child to be adopted but you get to see Who your giving them up too !! 3rd your a cruel human being!!!

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            She is beyond Cruel .

          • Susan Thomas

            If MOST people do it because they aren’t financially or emotionally ready!! Then they should have kept their legs closed!! You arefull of excuses!!

          • All4Him

            First how is it any different comparing the holocaust to what we’re doing know? The Natizis under he authority of Hitler killed many Americans and Jews and even there own people Germans! If you’ve ever heard of experiment camps respectfully you’d know they would experiment on humans and babies. Women would there children taken out of them so they would die. Also for toddlers and babies they were experimented on. They were injected babies with basically poison they did this to see what types of lethal poison thry could use in the future. What’s the difference from an abortion? I’m sorry you were forced I’m such a horrible horrible circumstance. Second for adoptions they do background checks and once a year they have to do all of this stuff make sire you haven’t abused your kids. You have to file paperwork once a year and they have to make sure where they live is suitable before thry let you even adopt a child. Even if the kid at 18 is no longer in an orphanage and on there own and do drugs and stuff at least they got a chance in life. When they were old enough to understand I would tell them the truth.

          • All4Him

            But I do wanna know whose to say we have the right to give and take away life? We don’t only God does. I have a lot of adopted sibblings and I love each and everyone one of them. They were from totally broken homes. But at least they were given a chance regardless. But I can tell you if you had an abortion yes your baby suffered but your baby is in a better place. I’m gonna summarize this up in a couple sentences.
            God created us to be with him
            Our sins separate US from God
            Sins cannot be removed by good deeds
            Paying the price Jesus died and rose again
            Everyone who trusts in Him has eternal life
            …. and if you choose to follow him
            Life with Jesus starts now and lasts forever
            If you wanna know more or wanna debAte God’s existence I’d love to have that conversation with you

          • Sandra Parrott

            I am 73 years old, and for years I believed abortion was a choice for a woman to make. I did not lose my child as an infant in my womb, I lost her as a beautiful, kind, loving, generous mother and grandmother. She died at age 47 from a brain stem hemorrhage. She was comatose and lived 3 days during which time I learned many truths. I learned that she had ALWAYS been our Heavenly Father’s. I learned the scripture that tells me every single person is His. He knows them before He forms them in our wombs. He called her by name, He knew the number of hairs on her head. Her life was His to take when He wanted. That truth has changed my belief about abortion. EVERY baby, no matter the circumstances, belongs to God, and no one has the right to kill it. There will be a judgement and we will have to face our Creator. Woe be unto those that have killed His children. Placing babies for adoption is a solution for all concerned. I am about to meet my first great-grandson who was placed for adoption. He has brought joy to a couple and their extended family for 19 years.

            To those of you who lost babies and were denied the precious moments to hold them have my deepest sympathy. What was done to you is criminal, and justice will be done some day. You can be certain that your baby was created by God and rests with Him in Glory. I pray that His comfort will bring you “the peace that passeth understanding” .

          • prolifemama

            Oh, Sandra, how beautiful – your heartbreaking story which you so generously share with us! You learned the right things by your precious daughter’s death, that all of us are His, even before the first instant of our lives at fertilization… before He formed us, He knows us.

            Sincerest congratulations on meeting your great-grandson. He is blessed with you as his wonderful great-grandmother.

            So glad you shared with us. Hope to meet you in Heaven, dear sister!

          • Sandra Parrott

            Count on it! I have every intention on being there. If I am busy loving on my precious daughter and many other loved ones, please be sure to call out to me. We can spend hours talking and sharing how our Father has worked out His plan for us all.

          • prolifemama

            I will, and I look forward to it! We will be like Lucy and the fish-herdess in C.S. Lewis’ “The Voyage of the Dawn Treader,” ‘rushing together with our hands held out,’ feeling as if we’ve known each other all our lives. God bless you, Sandra, and your wonderful family.

          • margaretbugg

            Thank you. So sorry for the loss of your daughter but so glad you get to meet your first great grandson. How wonderful!

          • Susan Thomas

            Amen Sandra! It took me 32yrs of life, but only a few weeks as a Hospice nurse to accept God and live in his word. Thank you Jesus! So sorry for the loss of your daughter

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            amen !! :-)

          • brian garnier

            A more accurate analogy would be: An evil bastard throws a homeless baby into your house. You then blow the baby’s brains out because you’re horrified and severely emotionally injured by the actions of said evil bastard.

          • prolifemama

            Boy, the trolls are really coming out of the cracks…

          • lmrealism

            I have been sexually assaulted by my own family i overcame that and moved on in my life and i am also a young mom in my 20s I have a beautiful 2 yr old daughter my own mother who was 15 and pregnant with me pushed for me to have an abortion despite all odds i decided not too i have a beautiful daughter m fiancee and I decided to have another baby and misscarried at 7 weeks what a terrible moment in my life I have looked into and studied a lot about abortion and misscarriages I don’t care to knock throes who abort but my beliefs are that i could have loved the baby I misscarried so much that hurt so bad and changed my life so much I could have never ever aborted that Child or any child when i started havwing problems they first suspected I could continue a normal pregnancy however their may be some issues with the child however no matter how “bad” the circumstances could be never ever would i have ever chose abortion and the hospital had no compassion whatsoever about the miscarriage you choose what u need but I have overcome so many circumstances in my life domestic violence/ physical abuse, sexual abuse … (IF)tHEIR IS A WILL their IS a WAY innocent children don’t ask to be brought in the world I myself could have been an aborted baby thank the Lord I was not!

          • Cherie Allgood

            You don’t make any sense. Why do you bother? Murder is murder, done by the mother before her baby is born, done by the doctor…The non-person-hood so many have come to believe in the last 40 years were based on out and out lies.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Anyone who breaks into a home is not exactly what I’d call innocent. Breaking and entering is a crime.

            Consider where your analogy breaks down. The fetus does not break into his/her mother’s uterus.

            By the way, someone who breaks into my house may- if he poses no grave threat to the lives of me or my family- get food, clothing, and shelter- though no freedom- courtesy of me and my fellow taxpayers, and breaking and entering that results in no death is not a capital punishment.

          • margaretbugg

            This is not even a good comparison. It is totally different. A homeless person that breaks into your house is a grown adult. They could choose to do something differentially than break into someone’s house. That unborn child has no choice.

          • prolifemama

            RESPONSES TO DifferentSense were4life’s QUESTION SCENARIOS

            1 – “INNOCENT” HOMELESS PERSON INVADING MY HOME: As breaking and entering IS a crime, I
            presume by “innocent” you mean said homeless person hasn’t injured me, and isn’t
            packing. In this case, while sensibly safeguarding myself and my family, I
            would allow her/him to stay long enough for me to find a local agency that
            could give far more help than I could. In answer to Cain’s supposedly
            rhetorical question, we are indeed one another’s keepers.

            But your comparison of a needy homeless person to an unborn
            child, limps. From the beginning of their relationship (fertilization) Mother
            and Child are not Benefactor v. Vagrant, not Victim v. Leech, nor Host v. Parasite.
            Any human biology book confirms this, as
            well as countless mothers, including many who were, at one time,
            abortion-minded. Since the relationship is not parasitic, but symbiotic, a
            mother’s body makes room for her growing unborn child, with the majority of
            women enjoying improved health during pregnancy, and documentable positive changes
            of the brain, giving new mothers permanently greater mental acuity (see The
            Mommy Brain, Katherine Ellison author). In short, the mother/child relationship
            is the closest one in human interaction – closer than father/child, siblings,
            even husband and wife.

            2 – INCESTUOUS RAPE AND SUBSEQUENT ARBITRARY “MERCY KILLING”: First of all, “incestual” isn’t an actual
            word. Second, please explain the “justice” in killing the innocent child for
            the crimes of his/her parents…then defend the audacity of a powerful human
            being determining that one vulnerable human being’s life is worth living, while
            another’s, is not.

            3 – PERSONHOOD: Far
            from “vague” and “undefined”, the prolife movement’s goal of personhood for unborn
            children is the legal status bestowed by government – the same status you and I
            enjoy – which carries with it legal protections and benefits. While an unborn
            human being has the potential to become the best person s/he can, s/he is still
            basically the same human being at college graduation s/he is at fertilization, regardless
            of her/his potential being realized, as her/his genetic makeup is not altered
            by oxygen, food and protection while in utero, and after birth, by choosing one
            educational/career path over another. S/he is and will always be the same human
            being. A fetus, then, is not a ‘potential’ human being, she or he is a human
            being with great potential. As such, personhood should be granted to unborn human
            beings, not in spite of what pro-aborts claim they supposedly lack, but because
            of what prolifers acknowledge they most definitely have. Humanity.

            (P.S. “undefinted”?? “pitch plack”??? Do you HAVE
            a spellchecker? Do you know how to use it?)

            4 – MURDER: First, term
            clarification: a human being’s life
            begins the moment his/her father’s sperm successfully penetrates/fertilizes
            his/her mother’s ovum. That instant is the beginning of life, for all of us. A
            solitary ovum or sperm – human gamete, yes. Human life/human being – no.

            However, if a woman is pregnant with multiple fetuses,
            decides she only wants one or two at most, then chooses the macabre option of
            “pregnancy reduction” wherein the abortionist injects digoxin directly into the
            hearts of one or more of the babies, then yes – this is murder of human beings
            -tiny girls and boys – in the earliest stages of their development.

            5 – FETAL/MATERNAL CULPABILITY
            IN PRENATAL DEATHS:

            ·
            “Shifting twin/umbilical strangulation: “Do we charge that baby with manslaughter or
            murder? Is that baby “issuing a death sentence on an innocent person?”

            Seriously? Of course not. How could an unborn baby be held
            responsible for something s/he didn’t intend to do, nor the ability to control?
            Since both twins are innocent and incapable of such an act, the question is
            moot. Not to mention idiotic.

            ·
            “If the mother dies in childbirth?”

            Again, no. The child is not responsible for his/her mother’s
            death, nor is the mother responsible for the death(s) of her child(ren) if while
            pregnant, she dies before s/he can survive ex utero.

            ·
            “If you read enough articles about the actuality
            of pregnancy, you could even promote the argument that abortion is self defense
            if you give the fetus the moral weight of being a person responsible for its
            actions.”

            See above.

            ·
            “I really don’t like this idea of personhood
            because… we focus on shaming the mother for destroying a ‘person’ and we give a
            fetus a ridiculous moral weight to their actions.”

            No one is giving fetuses’ actions “moral weight” except you,
            a supposition that is ridiculous on its face. And no prolife legislation has as
            its goal “shaming” ANY woman for seeking or undergoing abortions. The decision
            to abort is overwhelmingly made while in a frantic state of mind. It is a choice
            made in desperation. We consider the pregnant woman as much a victim of
            abortion as the unborn child.

            Personhood, as sought by prolife legislation, is a legal
            status bestowed by governments that provides legal protections and benefits for
            every human being, from fertilization to death by natural cause. It is not

            ·
            “I hate to be this person, but who says that
            being born is better than being unborn?”

            No one I know is saying that. Nevertheless, born and unborn –
            both can be wonderful when one is cherished, cared for. Conception leads
            naturally to birth – and ideally – to adulthood, old age, and a peaceful death.
            Anyone’s life can be improved by being loved and respected by our fellow human
            beings. Conversely, a person who lacks such support and affirmation from others
            can suffer greatly. The measure of our humanity is the consistency and
            dedication we display in caring for one another, regardless of our own, or
            others’ handicaps, disabilities, wealth, religion, creed, etc. This will
            determine, not only the continued survival of our human race, but our prosperity
            and posterity.

          • What exactly would qualify for abortion? You said it yourself, “VICTIM” of “RAPE!’
            Maybe we should throw a little incest in there with a side of HIV to satisfy your superior morals. pFfftt. I was raped as a kid. The statute of limitations ran out so I can’t have the priest charged but he is dead now so I put it in the past. However people like you don’t help.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I agree with you !!!

          • jessica

            I have been raped. I would have choose life for my baby.

          • margaretbugg

            OK so if you are sexually assaulted it makes it ok to kill your child? I know of a case where a girl was sexually assaulted and got pregnant. She did not feel the need to kill the baby, it was not the baby’s fault. She had the child and gave that child up for adoption. He was adopted by a doctor and his wife and had a good life. Being sexually assaulted is never a good thing and I am sure is very hard to get over. I had a husband who was abusive and sodomized me so I know what it is to be sexually assaulted. If I had gotten pregnant by that man I would have been not happy about it but I could not have harmed the child.

          • Pro Choice

            Yes. It does.

          • margaretbugg

            You totally amaze me. I would not have to have to live with myself after I had aborted my own child. I could not have looked myself in the mirror. I just hope someday you realize what a precious thing life is.

          • Kathi J

            That’s why we call it “pro-choice”, the choice to decide what is best for you, no one is going to force you have an abortion, there never will be laws obligating you to have an abortion. You get pregnant, no matter what the circumstances are, then you continue the pregnancy, you just don’t get to decide for other women who do not share you feelings or opinions.

          • margaretbugg

            Why is it all about what is best for the woman? What about that child? What about what is morally right? Does anyone care about that anymore? It is always me, me, me anymore. I am sick of it. I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone but I cannot for the life of me see how is can ever be right to kill your child and it certainly is killing because that baby inside of you is growing and developing and if it was not alive it would not be growing. Then you decide it is not the right thing for you and kill it? Yes there have always been abortions but they used to be considered wrong and done in secret which I think probably kept more children alive, now it it seems to be an accepted thing. Child is going to work for you to have at the moment – just kill it. Yes that is your choice.

          • Kathi J

            Why shouldn’t it be about the woman? BTW: A child has been born, embryos and fetuses are not children. And abortion due to rape has always been considered a moral reason for an abortion long before Roe, it was typically one of the exceptions to laws against abortion because people in general know that it is horrific to force a woman to continue a pregnancy conceived via rape. Abortion has been legal and then illegal in this country, legal longer than illegal and not considered wrong by everyone at all.

          • Savanna Trinity Letcher

            Thats just the pretty side of adoption. They dont show you the other side when the the child dosnt get adopted and is used as a pay check. Or when said child ages out of the system and is forced to live on his own basicly homeless

          • margaretbugg

            Well then at least the child had a chance to have a life. Would that child rather not have lived, not have had a chance at life?

          • Christy VanValkinburg

            whoa- stop using rape as an excuse for murder. How about if you can take yourself to get an abortion then you can sure take yourself to get medical treatment after such a “brutal” event. That’s a stupid excuse. Someone who is raped needs medical attention both physically and emotionally and if they are unable to cope with getting help they sure wouldn’t be making an emotionally solid decision to abort. That’s an excuse plain and simple – don’t use the guise of rape as a reason to act the way you want. Promote resonsibility not murder. You have no value of life – that’s pretty clear. That makes me sorry for you!

          • prolifemama

            And another troll!

          • Cherie Allgood

            It is never O.K. no matter the trauma a woman faces.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            I have, and I came to the conclusion that had I been pregnant, abortion just because the father was a criminal would not square with my opposition to the death penalty.

          • erin

            I unfortunately was raped and had to endure three days in court looking at the bastard who did it. With that being said, if I would have gotten pregnant from it, I wouldn’t of aborted because the baby is a human being and its not the childs fault on how it was concieved. People use this excuse all the time when in reality abortions are usually done because a female felt she was “too young” or “didnt mean to get pregnant”. Give that lame ass excuse a break.

          • margaretbugg

            I have and would choose life for the child. It is not the child’s fault.

          • Susan Thomas

            God gives us free will. Although, you WILL be judged and stand before that white throne for your choices! God gives NO ONE the right to take a life under any circumstances!! Read your bible!!

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Amen !!!

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            At the age of 13 I was a victim of (((RAPE)))
            I was Pro-Lifer before ,during and after my RAPE ! I know what it is like to lose something because a Man had to do that to me . It hurt me .But to take a Human Life is wrong .
            I was saving myself for my future husband .But life goes on . Now that I am Older I refuse to be that Victim .

        • Rabbit

          I am so sorry for your loss. I can’t your pain. I am also glad that it is changes some women’s perspectives. However 19 weeks is almost five months and they will not allow you to do it that far in. Three months is the limit. So I think the abortion debate would be better served with a fetus that age. Everyone has different view points. I don’t think people should get ugly and take away from your loss.

          • Adams

            Actually they have late term abortions where the mother actually goes into labor and the baby is brought out breach…the dr will then hold the baby’s head from coming out and cut the spinal cord which ceases life! They are even done late into the 3rd trimester! I think in no way should abortion be right or legal!! For people who believe abortions ok, Google videos on abortions. In these videos you can see the baby trying to move away from the instruments and they are clearing in pain as their limbs are ripped from their body! Don’t abort, give it up for adoption. They are many couples just waiting to adopt a baby!!

          • pumpkinpjays

            There was one doctor is Pennsylvania who did that. The rest of us in reproductive healthcare were horrified; that is NOT routine. To suggest otherwise only displays your ignorance.

          • sarah5775

            http://clinicquotes.com/orlando-womens-center-does-abortions-up-to-28-weeks/

            This is an ad from a clinic in Orlando offering to do abortions at 7 monhs.

          • sarah5775

            http://clinicquotes.com/category/quotes/late-term-abortions/page/2/

            More info about second and third trimester abortions

          • pumpkinpjays

            “Priests for Life”…first red flag. A quick google search for “Orlando Women’s Center” shows abortions done until 24 weeks (ie: before viability). Do people even look at things for themselves, or do they just believe whatever doctored email is sent their way?

          • Pro Choice

            An estimated 44 million abortions are performed globally each year, with slightly under half of those performed unsafely. All of these will be performed unsafely if we change it to being illegal. I wish everyone would stop acting like this is brand spanking new. Women have been doing this since before it was even legal.

          • margaretbugg

            Just because women have been killing their babies for years does not make it morally right. You talk like it is a just a little problem that you are getting rid of. It is a child. What is wrong with you?

          • Pro Choice

            Maybe it’s not morally right to you. There are a lot of people that see things differently. I don’t view it as a child yet, whereas you do.

          • CB

            Ummm they can do abortions up to 40+ weeks. I’m a labor and delivery nurse and one of the biggest fights, two hospitals had here in Colorado, was full term abortion. They use a metal device to go in and “essentially” crush the baby head so it will be dead before expulsion. Sick yes…but it is being done!

          • pumpkinpjays

            I worked as a labor and delivery nurse in 3 hospitals in Colorado…hospitals that do many deliveries. There is no such practice. Quit bullshitting–you people are sick.

          • sarah5775

            IT depends on the state you are in. In some states, such as my home state of nj, it is legal up until birth. There is a clinic in Florida that advertises doing third trimester abortions in the local paper

          • pumpkinpjays

            As noted on another comment: I see that clinic doing abortions until 24 weeks.

          • Mary Lee

            HA HA HA HA okay, you keep telling yourself that. Yeah, we love making up stories about babies being dismembered and their skulls crushed! Good lord, what is the matter with you?

            What will it take for all of you pro-aborts to wake up? WHAT?

          • pumpkinpjays

            By “pro-abort” do you mean “pro-abortion”? I don’t know anybody who’s pro-abortion. People ARE pro-choice, ie: what another woman does with her uterus is none of my business. Why is it any of yours?

        • CX

          But how often are these children that were not wanted adopted? Just look at all the kids in foster home. Adoption is great for those who cannot have children and will love them whole heartedly, but there are only so many people like that. Sometimes it’s better to save a child from suffering in a life of no love, by not being selfish and being responsible. You speak about taking the life of an innocent child who hasn’t been exposed to the harsh of reality of life, when that kid is born and put in an adoption agency it is the same as taking their life away because you lower their chance of a good life. You have to think about the long run not just that moment.

          • were4life

            40 couples are waiting for every child – and those are just the home-study approved ones. Thousands of people offer to adopt even 1 single special needs child when it is made known that a child needs parents – thousands! Every child is a wanted child, and parents are often forced to wait up to 2 years or longer to adopt due to the scarcity of children available for adoption – and due to the fact that so many children are being aborted. Most children are in foster care so long because the government or the bio parents refuse to free them up for adoption. It is due to government bureaucracy that keeps children waiting for families for years. Thousands of parents are longing to adopt these children. Also, there are very stringent requirements for adoption, and many families don’t qualify based on income, number of bedrooms in their house, or other technicalities.

          • pumpkinpjays

            Every child is NOT a wanted child; we wouldn’t have so many abused and abandoned kids were that the case. I wonder how many kids you have adopted who are not white, drug-addicted at delivery, and/or have physical/mental disabilities. If they answer is “zero”, which I expect is the case for the vast majority of people with such a narrow outlook, then you’re blowing smoke.

          • jdww

            I think you might be misinterpreting were4life’s every child wanted post. I read it as every life is precious no matter what. Unfortunately babies can’t choose their parents. What dose race have to do with it anyway? Children are children, not a race or “color”.

          • pumpkinpjays

            Sadly, it makes a difference in who would adopt them. You’d think we’d be past that by now; no such luck.

          • Lilian

            Every child a wanted child, and every unwanted child a dead fetus?

          • margaretbugg

            So if children are going to end up in the system they should be killed? Not buying that.

          • margaretbugg

            So it is best to just kill them????? That makes a lot of sense.

          • Laura Clark

            So what? They are humans and have a life and Will some day hear of God’s love, the natural order of our lives, and choose His love above all else and at that point in this person’s life, his/her obligation starts! Like Margaretbugg said, happiness or self pity are both choices and God gives us both. In the event that they never were given the opportunity to know our Lord, we are not held accountable for that but that is highly unlikely, especially in modern times with all of the technological advances in communication and such. People need to stop putting self as number one! God is, has and always will be the first and the last and the sooner non believers, faithless understand this, the better all lives will be!

          • Laura Clark

            Oh than their are the sweet, innocent lives being murdered that obviously were not given any opportunity at all so of course they are perfect angels that are allowed to instead join Him, although God planned a life order for Him/her but that life was cut so, so short because usually the mother chose killing her own child was easier or more convienent! Tragedy.

        • Lisahpost

          I do not like abortion but there IS a time a pregnant woman should be able to terminate and that is when her life is at risk by continuing to be pregnant. Especially if she already has children to take care of. Also nobody who hasn’t been severely abused and brutally raped should be passing judgment on women that have been and choose to abort. You assume that a woman that has gone through that is capable of logical thought or seeing things in a bigger picture. Some of them may be fighting to survive a huge mental breakdown and pstd. Yes some women do still keep a baby from rape but that does not mean all are capable of doing so without causing severe mental harm to themselves. To say you’ understand that it would be painful to the woman’ is a huge understatement and shows your lack of understanding!

          • margaretbugg

            I do understand.. I have ptsd, not from war from a relationship and a car wreak. I have been there – you work through it – you do not use it as a crutch. You learn – you go on and you make your life better. You do not use it as an excuse as to why you can’t do things. You grow from it. You don’t have to feel sorry for yourself for the rest of your life. I am tired of hearing people use traumatic experiences as an excuse. I have had a few of them and I never used them as excuses. I just pulled myself up and got over it. You either want to have a happy life and be successful or you want to wallow in bad things that happened to you and have a pity party. It is a choice. Make one.

          • Laura Clark

            I am very impressed by your wisdom. Thank you for expressing it in the graceful way you do! It is wonderful!

          • prolifemama

            Wow, margaretbugg – you are a prolife champion and hero, a wonderful, loving role model for anyone in any circumstance.
            Thank you so much for your courageous words and the actions that back them up.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            :-)

          • Medicme

            Whatever. Killing babies is never the answer. never.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I agree .

          • prolifemama

            Virtually all medical conditions – physical and mental – can be managed by competent OB/Gyns during pregnancy. There is never a medical need to destroy the child to save his/her mother’s life; in fact, abortion can put medically fragile women at greater risk.

            The quickest abortion takes 15 minutes. My emergency c-sections (2 of our 6 children) took approximately 7 minutes from baby heart deceleration to removal from my womb.

            It’s always safer to remove baby INTACT from mama when mama’s in trouble, rather than abort him or her. Even if baby is too young to survive ex utero, s/he doesn’t have to be intentionally destroyed. S/he can be held in loving hands until s/he expires naturally, if medical technology isn’t yet sophisticated enough to support the tinier babies.

            Regarding psychological issues involving childbirth, what is ignored by the pro-abort community is PASS, or Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome, similar to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

            It always amazes the willingness of the proabort crowd to stigmatize those women who suffer from PASS as being “guilted” into feeling remorse for their abortions. Don’t their feelings count? Don’t they deserve support, regardless of their reaction to their abortions?

            It would seem that proaborts only acknowledge a reaction of relief, so as to shore up their own abortion experiences.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Thank You ! :-)

      • Kathy Hedlund

        THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAPE EQUALITY!!!! YOUR COMMET MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • webtraveler2

          And the ill-informed right-wingers out here who want to control every one else’s life makes ME sick! Not your body, not your business, not your choice – period.

      • peggy Dixon

        i have worked with women in crisis pregnancies for over 30 years. There is a myth that aborting a child conceived in rape brings relief and resolves the problem. It does not. A woman need in depth counseling to work through her emotions so she can make an informed decision that she can live with. Only 3% of abortions are performed due to rape.

        • webtraveler2

          A friend of mine was raped in high school and her parents wouldn’t let her have an abortion. She hated the baby inside her. People made fun of her and talked crap about her behind her back because she was a pregnant teen. She tried killing the baby by going horseback riding and being reckless. She tried to starve herself and the baby – hoping it would abort. I tried multiple times to talk her out of killing the baby and herself by using a knife. And, as an unwanted child (the child of a teenage pregnancy) myself, I have no idea how kids born from rape are able to overcome that they were a product of rape. Was your “women in crisis” job at a pro-life place? Or did they give HONEST and TRUTHFUL answers and choices to women? I’m thinking if it were a pro-life place, that many women left to go somewhere else.

          “Because of the violence and stigma associated with rape — as well as different definitions — there are a wide range of statistics concerning rape. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, for instance,estimates that nearly 1.3 million American women were victims of rape or attempted rape in 2010. (About half were actual rapes.) But RAINN, the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, says about 64,000 women were raped between 2004-2005, citing Justice Department data.

          Obviously, the number of rapes will make a huge difference in the number of rapes that result in pregnancy. But Franks spoke of “incidence,” which suggests he is speaking about the rate of pregnancy.

          The most widely cited study of this question (embedded below) was published in 1996 by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, which determined a national rape-related pregnancy rate of 5.0 percent per rape among victims between the ages of 12 and 45. The study was based on a survey of 4008 adult women, over a three-year period, which covered a range of questions on drug and alcohol abuse but also included questions intended to draw out information on sexual assaults.” – Washington Post

          • peggy Dixon

            The issue dealt with my response versus your response is distinguishng the perpetrator of the violent act and the two victims. Abortion is a side issue. No one should take advantage of a woman experiencing trauma from violence to influence her to make any decision just because of your own personal opinions or for personal gain.No woman is denied an abortion and can have Medicaid pay for the abortion in cases of rape or incest. To group all women into needing an abortion to resolve being raped demeans the uniqueness of each woman, her strengths, her beliefs and her ability to,work through the emotions of rape. This seems what you are doing.
            Aborting the child does not change the damage she is experiencing due the the sexual violence perpetrated on her. The devastating effect on the woman is what needs to be worked through because this can effect her future relationships with others and her self image. Many women are led to believe that having an abortion will fix their situation. Rape victims suffer from post traumatic stress disorder and they need counseling for this. Rape is a violent crime against the woman and she needs emotional support and professional help. As far as current statistics go, 96 per cent of child bearing age women are on the pill so most rapes do not result in pregnancies. If they do, the woman can get Medicaid to,pay for the abortion if she claims rape. She does not have to report this to a police department.
            What you witnessed was this young woman’s transference of her anger at the perpetrator onto the fetus. Transference is common when a person does not feel free to deal directly with their perpetrator. When a woman has not receive help through professional counseling, the child can feel unloved by the mother because she sees the perpetrator each time she sees her child. Rape and sexual assault services are available in most communities to help with counseling.
            I have worked with many women who were raped by friends, dates and strangers (very few). Post traumatic stress disorders are common among rape victims.
            Of the women and teens I have worked with over the past30 years, none were exactly alike. Each had their own story, their own strengths in dealing with the violent act and their own plans regarding the pregnancy for those who were pregnant. Some have chosen to go through with pregnancy and parent. These women definitely need the counseling so they can distinguish between the perpetrator and their child (the child is not the perpetrator). Some women have chosen to carry the pregnancy to term and release into an adoptive family because they were not prepared to parent the child. Others have chosen to end the pregnancy. The most important thing is that each woman have the right to examine all options and get the facts and not be scare into getting an abortion nor into carrying the child to term. No one should profit from her pain she is dealing with.
            Now as far as the children… The children I have worked with learned of the circumstances surrounding their birth at a point in their life when they were able to understand and accept this. Their mother (in adoption mother and father) presents the facts to the child through the lens of love… That their birth mother made the choice to allow the child an opportunity at a life. The parenting mother would also present it in the same manner. Children have questions, but those I know were thankful they were given a chance at life. Many of these mothers married and the child did have a good Dad.
            I have never experienced a child adopted into a family who regrets the birthmother giving them a chanc at life. It has always been the opposite, they desire to meet the birthmom and thank her for her decision. Now adopted children can at times in their lives struggle with rejection just as children who are born out side of marriage struggle with rejection, as well as children whose parents divorced. There are no perfect parents or children. I have never met a child/teen/adult who was parented by their single mother who regretted that they were not aborted. Now they may experience struggles with rejection, but through counseling they can work through this and view their lives differently.
            I note you refer to yourself as an unwanted child. Do you wish your life had been terminated in utero. You are defining your value based on decisions made by your parentsI You are a unique person and can not have your future defined by your parents choices. There is no such thing as an unwanted child. There are many families who will never be able to adopt because there are no children available. The term unwanted child is a myth, but it is an emotional term to sway a woman to abort. I have had African American clients who were told by Planned Parenthood that no one would want their baby so they needed to be prepared to parent alone or abort. This is another myth . Women are not empowered by limiting their options which pushes them in the direction the “counselor ” wants them to go whether it be to enrich themselves or place their values on these women, but by giving them all their options. Only they and their child has to live with whatever choice they make.

      • Hannah Cushman

        So in your twisted mind rape is not ok but murder is ? Can you not see that it is a human being that will grow to live . Bad Things may happen to people but that doesn’t mean you get to choose who lives and who doesn’t

        • CX

          Abortion isn’t murder. It’s a way of saving a kid who will not be raised, loved, or treated right from a bad life. Get your head out of your ass. If you dont need an abortion than great for you, don’t bash someone else who has no choice or think it’s the best in the long run.

          • were4life

            Abortion *is* murder, and you know it, deep down. That is why you have no logical arguments. You can’t defend the chopping up of a child, so you use the euphemism of *saving* a child from a bad life. No, that is not *saving*. That is killing! You are here because you are trying to justify your actions, but your actions were intrinsically wrong – that means there is never a justification for abortion. In no sense will it ever be right under any circumstances!

          • Pro Choice

            Oh shove it up yours. It’s legal. It’ll always be legal. You can like it or hate it, but it will always be legal.

          • margaretbugg

            I do not care if you decide to kill your child but I do not want my tax dollars to pay for it.

          • Pro Choice

            And what exactly are your tax dollars paying for? Keeping the building standing, maybe. But it’s a voluntary surgery/option. Insurance doesn’t cover it, it comes out of your own pocket. I will spend 400-800$$ to end my “child’s” life verses being on welfare. And what do our tax dollars support? Oh yeah. Welfare. Me to support your ass because you had a kid when you weren’t ready and you can’t feed your family.
            Going by your logic I shouldn’t have to pay taxes for the education system because I don’t have children in school.
            I shouldn’t have to pay tax dollars for them to pave the roads because I don’t have a car and I walk everywhere.

          • Mary Lee

            Slavery was legal too.

            And even now that it’s illegal, it STILL happens!

            Murder happens, theft happens, all kinds of bad things happen. We now have millions upon millions of babies being aborted because it’s legal, and seen as just a “normal” procedure, like having one’s teeth cleaned. So it will still happen, so what? SO WHAT? Let’s legalize everything then. Let’s legalize burglary, that still happens (and most burglars aren’t murderers, either). Let’s legalize shoplifting too. Let’s legalize drunk driving. Let’s legalize child abuse. Let’s legalize pedophilia. Let’s legalize everything we now have a law against, because, guess what, all those things STILL HAPPEN.

            I mean, it’s just a personal choice, right? Killing one’s child, that’s nobody’s business. Unwanted unborn boys and girls, they’re just trash. Actually, they’re worse. Pro-aborts are more respectful towards their recycling than they are their own unborn babies. That should give you pause.

          • Basset_Hound

            If someone tore the limbs off and crushed the head of an unwanted puppy, THEN she’d be outraged. But an unwanted unborn baby, not so much.

            Queue up the Alanis Morisette cut because That’s Ironic.

          • disqus_c7ds1PDfrR

            You’re right. It’s no one else’s business if I decided to “kill” my child

          • Mary Lee

            It’s everybody’s business if you decide to kill your child. Everybody’s.

          • Griffonn

            A woman who harms her child is no better than a man who beats his wife. (Which used to be legal also, btw, and the people who defended it used the same arguments these people use – “it’s my house, I don’t know how this crazy lady got here but it’s my property and anyone in it is mine to dispense with as I choose!”)

          • disqus_c7ds1PDfrR

            How? It doesn’t directly effect you in any way. You didn’t get me pregnant. It’s not your grandchild. Just like it’s not your business of I decide to become a lesbian and get married. What right do you have to decide who I lay in bed with? It’s not hurting you at all.

          • Mary Lee

            It affects everybody. Killing another human being is not–and never will be–a “personal” decision. It doesn’t matter the procedure, the “legality,” the location, or size. Abortion is the killing g of a valuable and unique individual. That IS everyone’s business. You think abortion doesn’t affect anyone? That’s a lie.

            Child abuse and domestic abuse have risen astronomically since Roe v. Wade. That’s not a coincidence.

          • disqus_c7ds1PDfrR

            It’s not someone’s daughter or son. It’s MINE. It effects me, my boyfriend, and MY family.

          • Mary Lee

            It is your son or daughter, someone’s future husband or wife, and you have no right to have your child killed because you don’t love him or her. THAT is sick.

          • Pro Choice

            Are you going to raise it then? My child? Are you going to raise? Are you going to go through labor and delivery? Are you going to feed it? Are you going to take it to the doctor for shots, illnesses,change its diaper? Are you going to pay for it to go to school? Are you going to wake up with it in the middle of the night? If you answered no to all of these questions then I have a right to do WHATEVER I please.

          • Mary Lee

            Yes. I will raise your child. I would be more than happy to. I love children. I have children. If you don’t want your baby, I would happily give him or her a home, and love. Killing your child is not the answer. There is more love and hope in the world than hate and despair.

            If I could, I would rival Angelina Jolie…..Children and animals….. The most precious of all of us. There could never be enough.

          • Pro Choice

            I’m sure.

          • Mary Lee

            Try me. I mean it.

          • Basset_Hound

            Wow. According to your “logic”, unless I’m willing to adopt every unwanted dog, cat, ferret, cocatoo, corn snake, parakeet, etc…etc…etc…and take them to the vet, feed them and wake up with them in the middle of the night, I’ve got no right to speak out against animal abuse or puppy mills.

          • Pro Choice

            You can speak out against abuse of animals/humans. I would fully support you too. However, everyone seems to think that everyone that goes into the system is adopted out and lead this beautiful life. That isn’t the case at all. 400,540 children are in the U.S. foster care system. Of those, about half are in a temporary home. 23% in group homes. And 40,000 aged out of the system.

          • Mary Lee

            They are boys and girls. Your child is NOT your property, to be disposed of on your whim.

          • Pro Choice

            It’s a parasite that sucks the life from you. My body is NOT YOUR property, to decide what I should use it for.

          • Mary Lee

            The uterus is MADE TO HOLD BABIES. That is the purpose. If you don’t want babies, then don’t have them…..use 18 forms of birth control, get your tubes tied. I don’t care what you do with YOUR BODY. I care about your frightening lack of understanding, I care that your son or daughter in utero will most likely be given a death sentence, simply because his mommy doesn’t want him and actually resents him for existing, even though she put him there, even though he is exactly where he should be.

            Grow up. The idea that sanctioning the violent and bloody death of your own child excites you and invigorates you is absolutely chilling. Chilling, and nauseating.

          • Pro Choice

            1) Birth control fails. Getting your tubes tied is a painful process and you have to be at least 25 or have a child and can cost almost 6000$. Most guys won’t get vasectomy, just how it is honestly and can be upwards of 1000$. Also those kinds of procedures are dangerous and have huge risks. 2) As I said, pregnancy isn’t a punishment for sex. Shouldn’t be treated as one. So if I don’t want a child I shouldn’t have to had one just because I had sex. 3) I have never stated that I am “excited” about my unborn child’s death. I’m exercising my opinion just as you are yours. 4) I will continue to exercise my right to choose when it comes to all aspects of my life, love, and reproductive system.

          • Mary Lee

            This is a crock. Excuses. Yes, you really want to kill your baby. The wisest thing to do is find your baby a loving home but you’d rather just kill him and throw him away. Utterly heartwarming. /sarc

          • Laura Clark

            If you cannot afford to have your tubes tied or whatever else or if you only have the sense of let’s say a “parasite” than at least have some class and wait until your parasitic mind is more able to deal with the consequences of your actions to have sex… That is why abstinence is God’s law…. until you are in a loving, lifetime commitment aka marriage.

          • Basset_Hound

            Once again, what a twisted degrading view of children, and the normal functioning of the female body. If this is what it means to be “free and equal”, they can shove the concept where the sun don’t shine.

            I am PROUD that I have a uterus.
            I am PROUD that I carried and nurtured life in my womb, and of the influence I had over the life of a beautiful young woman, and of a handsome, but profoundly disabled young man.
            I am PROUD that I found a way to utilize my interests on my own, and still raise my children.
            I am PROUD that I didn’t need a fancy job title or a huge paycheck to realize that I was an intelligent, capable person.

            If that makes me a “broodmare”, “relighious prig”or “stupid moo” in some people’s eyes, I’ll wear the titles as badges of honor.

          • Mr. G.

            None of these things you say you’re proud of make you a “broodmare”, a “religious prig”, or a “stupid moo”. What those of us who disagree with the forced-gestation worldview object to is the demand that they be allowed to treat women as little different from broodmares or breeder slaves by forcing them to gestate pregnancies that they want no part of.

          • MamaBear

            Well said, Basset.
            Bearing and raising children is a privilege and honor that we have as women.
            Jobs and careers can be gone in a heartbeat. The influences we have in shaping the lives of our children are as eternal as their souls.
            My three children are my greatest and most lasting achievement.

          • Basset_Hound

            Mom, did you see the response I got from YewKnowHooo?

          • MamaBear

            Oh yeeeessss indeedy!!!
            Melting witches and graveyards and venom. Sounds like a kid who is ready for Halloween. What YewnowHoooo needs is a good long drink of the Living Water.
            BTW – PET scan tomorrow. Yes, it is that time again already. I ask for your prayers and the prayers of any other believers who read this here for good results.

          • Basset_Hound

            Absolutely. Seriously, you’ve got more grace and courage in one orbiting electron of one oxygen atom of one protein in one skin cell in your little finger than these trolls have in their entire bodies.

          • MamaBear

            Thank you!

          • Mr. G.

            BTW: I’d like to thank you, Mama, and, to a lesser extent, Calvin – and perhaps a nod to C.M. as well for illustrating why I hold rigid religiosity in such low esteem.

          • Laura Clark

            Couldn’t have said it better myself!

          • Griffonn

            Look at Maureen Dowd. Is being THAT better than being a grandmother?

          • Griffonn

            Your three kids are probably not your greatest and most lasting achievement, because you cannot know how much your influence will affect your grandchildren and their children and grandchildren…a good parent has more real influence than any number of career-oriented professional cogs-in-mindless-machine.

            http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044741/

          • Laura Clark

            I cannot even find a word to describe what I personally feel about you, and I have never met you! That is scary and downright soulless!

          • Mr. G.

            An increase in child abuse is hardly attributable to abortion – no child to abuse there. The increase in domestic abuse may have some correlation with availability of abortion – a good many abusers want to impregnate their victims because they think the presence of children gives them more leverage over their victim and they feel their sense of control being threatened when they don’t have allies in their quest to introduce children to the mix. Banning abortion amounts to restraining a woman in place so she will continue to be abused.

          • Mary Lee

            I cannot take anything you say seriously, because you are wrong about everything, it’s incredible. I’d rather discuss this topic with The Hamburglar.

          • Mr. G.

            Saying no child to abuse = no child abused is not credible? Does it bother you to admit that forcing women to carry pregnancies can make you a partner in abusing her?

          • Mary Lee

            No. Your reasoning is not credible. Nothing you say is credible. Your comment is nonsensical—it does not follow.

          • PJ4

            Is it anyone’s business if a man decides to beat his wife?

          • Pro Choice

            You seem to be not paying attention to what we are talking about. I’m talking about my human right to chose while you’re talking about domestic violence.

          • PJ4

            There’s no human right to choses to kill yout kid
            Sorry

          • Pro Choice

            Well seeing it’s legal and accepted by 3 out of 10 women in the U.S alone….then yes, there is.

          • PJ4

            Oh not the 3 in 10 lie again
            Don’t you people get tired of peddling the same old lies?
            Remember when marital rape was legal?

          • Pro Choice

            Lie? Why don’t you do some research and then come talk to me about this issue? Clearly you aren’t informed enough to have a discussion. As for the martial rape, I can’t really comment because it isn’t the issue we are discussing and I’m not read up on it. However I will say, remember when women got paid less than men? Oh wait still happens. Or how about when Gay rights were illegal and in some cases still are? Do you have the right to choose who I sleep with at night? You can’t compare a legal issue to another. I’m sure martial rape still happens, which is very sad and very unfortunate and I hope we stamp it out. I’m also sure that women get paid less then men. I’m also sure that my friend was kicked out of her home and had to call me to let her stay with me because she came out to her family. I’m also think that not all CRIME will be eliminated and still happen. Just as I’m sure women have been getting abortions even when God was a main focal point in earlier times just as I’m sure it will happen even if it does become illegal. The World Health Organization (WHO) published an estimate that in 2003 approximately 42 million pregnancies were voluntarily terminated, of which 20 million were unsafe

          • Pro Choice

            And 1 and 3 women will have an abortion in her lifetime. Just saying.

          • PJ4

            And 1 in 3 men will rape a woman of they wouldnt get caught
            Just saying

          • Pro Choice

            You are talking about sexually assaulting someone. The issue we are discussing is aborting something that hasn’t even been born yet. Okay men will rape if they wouldn’t get caught. Women would abort if they sold the abortion pill over the counter. You can’t justify something with something totally different.

          • PJ4

            You’re talking about killing another human being
            You’re right–worse than rape

            Rapists gotta rape, theives gotta steal, child killers gotta kill their kids
            Good point

            You’ve made my argument for me
            Thanks

          • Pro Choice

            Never did I say these things. But hey whatever helps you sleep at night.

          • PJ4

            Yes dear, whatever helps you sleep at night

          • Pro Choice

            Exercising my right to choose helps me sleep at night. Knowing that if I ever get pregnant I can LEGALLY take care of it if I want helps me sleep at night.

          • PJ4

            Again
            There is no right to kill your offspring/another human being
            But if being able to kill someone helps you sleep at night—that sounds like a sociopath

          • Pro Choice

            A fetus can’t survive on its own. It is fully dependent on its mother’s body, unlike born human beings.
            Even if a fetus was alive, the “right to life” doesn’t imply a right to use somebody else’s body. People have the right to refuse to donate their organs, for example, even if doing so would save somebody else’s life.
            The “right to life” also doesn’t imply a right to live by threatening somebody else’s life. Bearing children is always a threat the life of the mother (see below).
            A “right to life” is, at the end of the day, a right to not have somebody else’s will imposed upon your body. Do women not have this right as well?

          • PJ4

            You guys need a new argument
            If I had a dime for every pro abort that peddled the same old tired debunked crap, I’d be a billionaire

            Come to me when you’ve got something more original and better to offer
            I see that Mary Lee had already schooled you
            It’s not our oroblem you still don’t understand

            The least you could do is get a different angle

          • Pro Choice

            Not like any of your arguments are original either. You pro lifes are all about making women feel guilty and awful about a choice they made as grown adults. And schooled me? Please.

          • PJ4

            Well if you kill another human being, then yes you should feel guilty and remorse
            And yes…she schooled you
            That you cannot even comprehend it is telling

          • Pro Choice

            Schooled me? No. Exercise her opinion, yes. The fact that you can’t even comprehend where I’m coming from is telling. I can’t convince anyone to change their views on the issue and I don’t want to. It’s something that’s been argued forever. It will probably always be argued, especially when religion is a factor. I’m just saying it’s okay to choose. It’s okay to not want a baby for various reasons. It’s okay to get an abortion because it’s legal and safe, and accepted by a lot of people. Am I saying it’s for everyone? No. I don’t care if you keep your child, put him/her in foster care, or get an abortion. You’re an adult. You know what’s right for you. You are perfectly capable of making an informed decision. It shouldn’t be because of social pressures or because some bible thumper comes in and says abortion is wrong and you have to keep your child. I’m saying that everyone can choose and that’s a good thing. You have an option. You don’t have to be a teen mom or give up your dream or be with someone because you have a child with them.

          • PJ4

            Lol, yes–again, she’s been schooling you
            Sorry you missed it

            Of course I know where you’re coming from
            When I was a Christian I was pro “choice” too.
            I know all your tactics
            But then I graduated from high school–and stopped being a Christian
            I took way too many science courses in college and became pro life

            Like you, I’m not interested in changing your mind
            My target is the fence sitter

            Wait, it’s ok to kill your child while he/she is still in your womb because it’s legal?
            So…when it becomes illegal, you’ll just accept it as something bad?
            Interesting

            Of course a woman can choose if she doesn’t want to have kids
            No one is forcibly impregnating women and tying them to a bed
            Don’t want to have kids, don’t get pregnant
            This is the 21st century
            There’s this thing called birth control–ever heard of it?
            There’s a new one for men on the market
            My goal is to get it to the US asap as its the only one 100% effective
            If you never want a kid, get your tubes tied
            End of story
            You have no right to force a child into the prison of your uterus and then execute him/her for the existence you helped bring about
            (And Soare me the 1% rape exception–if that (and the life of the mother) was the only reason women killed their baby, we would most likely not even be having this conversation

            You don’t have to give up your dreams just because you have a baby
            You can have your cake and eat it too
            Pro lifers don’t pit mother against child

          • Pro Choice

            Some women actually do get tied to a bed and impregnanted. It’s called rape. Birth control fails. Even if birth control is used 100% effective it fails sometimes for a variety of reason. My mother was on birth control when she got pregnant with me because she was also taking an antibiotic and didn’t know. Getting tubes tied can be upwards to 6000$. Money–have you ever hear of it? And a vasectomy can be upwards to 1000$. They are also painful procedures that can be taxing on a woman’s body.
            Trapping into my prison of a uterus? No. But I will tell you what I’ve told others. There are a lot of options why a woman would seek abortion. Depending on the circumstances, the mere act of having a child in a hospital can cost between $3,000 and $37,000 in the United States. Giving birth is dangerous, too: In the United States, pregnancy complications are the sixth most common cause of death for women between the ages of 20 and 34.
            Even before birth, there are costs to pregnancy. In addition to the whole carrying another human being around in your stomach for nine months thing, many women, particularly teens, are shunned and shamed for their pregnancies — not only by friends, families,employers, and classmates, but also by advertisements in the subway. There’s also the risk of violent retribution from abusive partners and parents.In short, there are a lot of reasons a woman might seek an abortion.

            Also I’m not pitting mothers against children. I’m arguing a completely rational platform. You may not pit mothers against children but you certainly have no problem calling people murderers and trying to assert your dominance over women and trap them in a terrible decision, as if it weren’t already hard.

            Women make lots of sacrifices for their children, especially young mothers. If you were a teen mom, you could try and juggle your dreams and such but it would definitely immensely hard. Going to school, working, and supporting a child isn’t the easiest you know. That’s from seeing my mother struggle growing up, so personal experience. Sure if you’re rich or have supportive parents that makes things easier, but if not you seem to be SOL.

            Lastly going back to the “So…when it becomes illegal, you’ll just accept it as something bad?” Actually no. Because I don’t judge people based on there decisions when it concerns their bodies unlike pro-“lifers”. More than likely women death rates will soar because already 43% of women have unsafe abortions.

          • PJ4

            Some women actually do get tied to a bed and impregnanted. It’s called rape.

            According to the pro abortion Guttmacher Institute, rape is 1% of the reason why women kill their babies.

            Birth control fails

            Still not a reason to kill your child.

            Even if birth control is used 100% effective it fails sometimes for a variety of reason. My mother was on birth control when she got pregnant with me because she was also taking an antibiotic and didn’t know.

            It’s a bit ironic now that you’ve survived being killed by your mother that you’d be advocating for killing human beings who would share your own position.

            Getting tubes tied can be upwards to 6000$. Money–have you ever hear of it? And a vasectomy can be upwards to 1000$

            http://www.giveforward.com/cause/raise-money-for-surgery

            They are also painful procedures that can be taxing on a woman’s body.

            So is abortion

            http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/advice/a552/abortion-pill/

            Trapping into my prison of a uterus? No.

            Yes. Absolutely.

            But I will tell you what I’ve told others.

            Because you don’t think I’ve heard it all before? I used to be you. I know all the rhetoric. I used to buy into it too. But then I graduated for high school.

            There are a lot of options why a woman would seek abortion.

            Yes, Guttmacher lists them all, so I know.

            Depending on the circumstances, the mere act of having a child in a hospital can cost between $3,000 and $37,000 in the United States.

            And Obamacare has taken care of this excuse.

            Next.

            Giving birth is dangerous, too: In the United States, pregnancy complications are the sixth most common cause of death for women between the ages of 20 and 34.

            Yes, well, in pro life countries, the MMR is much much lower.

            Ireland is one of the safest places for a mother to give birth.

            It’s unfortunate that in US it has to be as high as it is.

            Most of the deaths are preventable.

            But, not it’s not the 6th most common cause of death, at least not in 2011 as the CDC has recorded it.

            Here :

            http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2011/WomenlRace_2011.pdf

            #6 is Unintentional
            injuries at 3.7%

            As a matter of fact, child birth doesn’t even make the top 10.

            Do you have the CDC numbers from 2012 to now? Has it changed?

            If so, don’t link it as your comment will go into moderation. Just tell me what to Google.

            Even before birth, there are costs to pregnancy.

            Not so much anymore.

            Even before Obamacare, women had the option of free clinics and CPC (and I’m guessing even PP provided free pre-natal care, but don’t quote me on it.)

            I speak from experience

            On to the next excuse for killing one’s child.

            Although it’s beginning to sound very materialistic of you…. so far the biggest reason to end the life of another human being who cannot even defend himself/herself is money.

            In addition to the whole carrying another human being around in your stomach for nine months thing, many women, particularly teens, are shunned and shamed for their pregnancies

            Not that I believe this.. (because I was a single mom and I don’t remember being shamed with the exception of my mother who cut me off and stopped talking to me until my eldest was born) but are you saying that giving into peer pressure (shaming ) is a good reason to kill your child? Really???

            How about let’s work on removing the stigma from pregnancy? Ever heard of the

            Ever though about that as a solution?

            There’s also the risk of violent retribution from abusive partners and parents.

            Yes, those abusive partners and parents are pro abortion. They have no respect for life

            Instead of women killing her kid over an abusive parent or partner, how about helping her escape and making forced abortion a punishable crime.

            In short, there are a lot of reasons a woman might seek an abortion.

            No, in short, there are excuses that can be (and some have been) remedied.

            Also I’m not pitting mothers against children. I’m arguing a completely rational platform.

            Yes, you are. And no, it’s never a rational platform to dehumanize an entire class of human beings so that they can be killed.

            Really. It’s not. As a matter of fact, killing another human is a very irrational thing.

            You may not pit mothers against children but you certainly have no problem calling people murderers and trying to assert your dominance over women and trap them in a terrible decision, as if it weren’t already hard.

            I don’t call people murder unless they are.

            I don’t assert any dominance over women. Don’t make such a silly remark especially when you cannot even see the irony in your now words.

            It’s the woman who seeks an abortion who asserts her dominance over her own child.

            Like Mary said. Abortion is nothing but might=right.

            Women make lots of sacrifices for their children, especially young mothers

            Yes we do.

            If you were a teen mom, you could try and juggle your dreams and such but it would definitely immensely hard.

            Oh.. I get it.. you’re advocating for the path of least resistance?

            Because… why? You think women are too weak to do anything too difficult?

            Going to school, working, and supporting a child isn’t the easiest you know. That’s from seeing my mother struggle growing up, so personal experience. Sure if you’re rich or have supportive parents that makes things easier, but if not you seem to be SOL.

            Yes, I know… I did it.

            No, it wasn’t easy.

            But I did it.

            Your mother did it.

            The only help I had was from the local CPC who provided free daycare for me while I finished college, and started a job.

            So, no, you’re not SOL if you’re poor, there are always places and people willing to help.

            I’m sure you would help if you could too.

            Lastly going back to the “So…when it becomes illegal, you’ll just accept it as something bad?” Actually no.

            So, legality doesn’t make something right or wrong for you?

            Well that’s good to know.

            Because I don’t judge people based on there decisions when it concerns their bodies unlike pro-“lifers”.

            What a co-ink-ee-dink! Neither do pro lifers.

            We could not care less what a woman does with her own body.

            We only care that about what she does to the child’s body.

            More than likely women death rates will soar because already 43% of women have unsafe abortions.

            Nope, that’s another myth.
            Even before Roe, women were not dying in droves from abortion.
            Know why? Modern medicine.

            Don’t believe me? Ask the former director of PP:

            Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physicians. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind. In New York City in 1921 there were 144 abortion deaths, In 1951 there were only 15; and, while the abortion death rate was going down so strikingly in that 30-year period, we know what happened to the population and the birth rate. Two corollary factors must be mentioned here: first, chemotherapy and antibiotics have come in, benefiting all surgical procedures as well as abortion. Second, and even more important, the conference estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Call them what you will, abortionists or anything else, they are still physicians, trained as such; and many of them are in good standing in their communities. They must do a pretty good job if the death rate is as low as it is…abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous.–Dr Mary Calderone, former director of Planned Parenthood, estimated in a July 1960 article from the American Journal of Public Health

            Remember, Gosnell happened in a post Roe world and was a result of pro “choice” legislation.

            Oh.. and..
            http://www.nysun.com/new-york/abortion-myth-perpetuated/60958/

          • Pro Choice

            1) Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.
            2) The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?
            3) Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women – 88% – who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman’s health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth
            https://www.womenonweb.org/en/page/561/is-a-medical-abortion-dangerous
            http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2012/01/23/abortion-safer-for-women-than-childbirth-study-claims
            4)The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
            5)Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; or develop health problems.
            6)Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.
            7)The preborn child doesn’t have enough size, ability to feel pain, viability, self-awareness, etc. to be granted rights of personhood. Issues of personal morality are best left to individual discretion.
            8)As for my mother. Well, if I’d never come into existence in the first place, I probably wouldn’t have any strong feelings on the matter. Anyway, I love my mother very much and respect her right to make whatever decisions are right for her body and life.

          • PJ4

            Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot
            exist outside her womb

            Yes, I know and if we manage to limit all abortion to only the first trimester, that would be a great pro life victory—but really only the start.

            Attachment doesn’t dictate worthlessness or worthiness

            But, yes according to most embryology texts and doctors the child in the womb is a separate individual

            The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how
            is abortion murder?

            The concept of personhood was invented by people who didn’t want to feel guilty about killing the child in the womb.

            Just like the concept of race was invented to subject one “race” to another.

            Most pro lifers are against IVF for the same reason we’re against abortion.

            Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women – 88% – who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman’s health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth

            1. Abortion related deaths and injuries are under realted severely.

            Here’s just one state:
            http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-16/news/ct-met-abortion-reporting-20110615_1_abortion-providers-fewer-abortions-national-abortion-federation

            Several other states don’t even report

            Tell me how an accurate percentage can be ascertained by non-reported numbers?

            2. That study was conducted by two pro abortion abortionists who both worked at PP at one time or another and was funded by pro abortion groups.

            Now give me a study that says smoking is safe, conducted by employees of Phillip Morris who are smokers themselves and hold stock in the company and is paid for by PM and I’ll believe that too.

            4)The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?

            This is farce.
            A woman already has control over her body before she is complicit in forcing the life of the child into the prison of her uterus. (we’re talking about 99% of the time here, I know in your head you’re screaming “but what about rape!!!)

            Reproductive rights is just a euphemism for abortion. There is no right to kill one’s child–regardless of stage of development. Take away the child’s right to life and you step into a slippery slope. Where does it end? Can infanticide be justified? What about children who have not and never will attain the ability to reason? What about the elderly when they become too feeble and a burden on their family?

            http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/nelson-jones/2012/03/birth-abortion-infanticide

            “When the life of an infant will be so miserable as not to be worth living, from the internal perspective of the being who will lead that life, both the ‘prior existence’ and the ‘total’ version of utilitarianism entail that, if there are no ‘extrinsic’ reasons for keeping the infant alive – like the feelings of the parents – it is better that the child should be helped to die without further suffering. A more difficult problem arises – and the convergence between the two views ends – when we consider disabilities that make the child’s life prospects significantly less promising than those of a normal child, but not so bleak as to make the child’s life not worth living. Haemophilia is probably in this category.” –Dr Peter Singer.

            *also see his writings on justifying involuntary euthanasia

            Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; or develop health problems.

            Again, the solution is not killing the child.

            Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.

            Yes, let’s take a look at the APA, shall we?

            Go here: http://library.psych.org/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?

            click on the first link and then put in abortion.
            You’ll see their mission statement on abortion
            So yes, of course they will deny any evidence to support PAS http://liveactionnews.org/studies-show-risk-of-suicide-elevated-in-women-after-abortion/

            And forgive me if I’m skeptical of an association that just 50 years ago would have deemed me to have a mental illness for being bisexual.

            7)The preborn child doesn’t have enough size, ability to feel pain, viability, self-awareness, etc. to be granted rights of personhood. Issues of personal morality are best left to individual discretion.

            Right, your ability to discriminate based on size and development duly noted.

            Killing your child is not a personal morality thing.

          • PJ4

            I also have no choice but to spend much of my time around pro aborts
            My hubby and I work in the industry out here in LA
            If anyone found out we were pro life and conservative, we’d never work again
            So yes, I still know exactly where you are coming from

          • Laura Clark

            Not that it is at all helping you but I suspect they are trying to help you grasp the concept of having feelings, which I see is not easy for you… You have to stop putting you as the only person who exists! Feel for other people, cherish life!

          • Laura Clark

            So a newborn does not depend on it’s mother, father or caretaker to keep it alive? Are you insane or just extremely dumb, uneducated, what? Wow.

          • Laura Clark

            So basically you see no sense in having any morals, grace or class and long as it is legal? I think this is the saddest thing I have ever heard. Wow. I know you are not the only one with this thought process but you have just explained what goes through the mind of someone with, as much as I hate to say this, no soul.

          • Laura Clark

            Please search for the truth of your life, ask God to help you understand life, your life, and all life He created. Give God His due chance! It is now your decision, Pro Choice because He is wanting you to accept Him now!

          • webtraveler2

            Yes, abortion is the ending of a life. Pro-choice people get that. But it’s not your decision to make for everyone. Not everyone is in a happy environment or wants to be pregnant. Not your life, not your body, not your business, not your decision. “there is never a justification for abortion” – many people disagree with you. You don’t get to make decisions for other people. If abortion is ruled as illegal, it won’t stop abortions, women will just go back to having them in back alleys with wire coat hangers. If YOU don’t want an abortion, then don’t get one. But trying to force your beliefs onto others isn’t going to get you anywhere. You don’t have the right to tell others what they can/cant’ do with their own bodies. A pregnancy and the options are between each individual woman and her doctor, no one else – period. And MOST women do not wait until 19 or 20 weeks to make the decision to abort. Most women abort between 8 and 12 weeks.

          • Pro Choice

            If you can consider it killing then call me a murderer.

          • sarah5775

            do you know how abortions are done? usually by tearing the baby apart, dismembering him or her. I ask you- is THIS saving a kid? http://clinicquotes.com/abortion-at-9-weeks-pictures/

          • margaretbugg

            Save a child by MURDERING it? Get your head out of YOUR ass. Abortion is killing. Have you ever done any research on abortion? Do you know that child feels?

          • Pro Choice

            Abortion is the ending of pregnancy by the removal or forcing out from the womb of a fetus or embryo before it is able to survive on its own. That is what came up when I did your “research”.

          • Lilian

            Then why can’t we apply this method of salvation to children after they are born?

        • DifferentSense

          Abortion happens pretty naturally in multiple cases in nature especially in cases where parenting requires large investments of time *cough* humans *cough*.

          Is an abortion where your body rejects the pregnancy because the potential child is deformed murder? Manslaughter?

          Also why does a potential human take priority over a human currently existing? Is that how we make decisions in life? Do you encourage everyone you know to eat as healthily as possible for the sake of future children?

          By the logic of giving a potential more weight than a current, you are placing a moral obligation to act in the favor of the potential so every time you have eaten something with a known ability to cause a birth defect, you have harmed a future fetus.

          • Lilian

            …deaths by burst appendix and infected teeth happen naturally too. So does death by flu – quite often.

            Does this mean it’s okay for me to induce abdominal sepsis, infection of the jawbone which becomes encephalitis, or death by flu-induced pneumonia in a human being because I don’t want that human around?

      • Kat

        How in all eternity was that closed minded? I have had encounters, and will not go into detail, but I have had issues like that before and you have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and suck it up. Get over it and move on. For your own mental health, because the only life that you ruin if you don’t is your own. Murder of a child is never justified. We put people in jail for that. What makes abortion so different? So you can’t look at the mistakes you’ve made or because you can’t just let it be in the past and move on that you have to wallow in self pity because you can’t just forgive yourself. That child did not ask to be born, let alone choose how to get here. It’s not like they have a choice either. My grandma said the best thing that happened and the worst was getting raped. The good was she got a baby who was willing to love her forever.

      • were4life

        It is more closed-minded and brutal to tear a child apart from limb to limb than to want to protect the rights of that child to live.

        • webtraveler2

          You’ve been drinking too much Kool-Aid. Meaning, you’re being LIED to. Not your body, not your choice – period!

          • Mary Lee

            The baby’s body is not the mother’s body. Nobody has the right to have their child killed. PERIOD.

          • Pro Choice

            And MY body isn’t YOUR body. PERIOD.

          • Mary Lee

            No, mine isn’t. But neither is YOUR BABY’S.

            YOUR BABY’S BODY IS NOT *YOUR* BODY. PERIOD. You have no right to brutally destroy the body of your baby. Your baby is not your property, and YOU do not get to decide to slaughter him. You are willfully obtuse, and you sound like a fool.

          • Pro Choice

            It’s sucking LIFE from MY BODY. I could argue it’s self defense as well if we are taking this route. Self-defense is a countermeasure that involves defending ones property, or the well-being of another from harm. My BODY is MY PROPERTY. The fetus is sucking nutrients and blood from my body.

          • Mary Lee

            You are a moron. The baby is not a parasite (please read a biology book) and your baby isn’t sucking life out of you….You are nurturing your child. Self-defense, you say? FROM WHAT?! FROM A BABY?! That is the stupidest pro-abortion argument ever. It is disgusting. The fact that you not only dehumanize your baby, but DEMONIZE your baby…..My God, it’s sick. It is sick, and hateful.

          • Pro Choice

            Good job resorting to name calling because you can’t honestly think of anything to say to argue. Also, if the mother is at risk to death and what have you because of being pregnant or whatever, it is very viable to say it is self defense to abort. The child is threatening your health and well being. I’m sure I could even argue that in court and I would have a strong standing. Even we go with your argument that the child deserves a right to life doesn’t imply a right to use somebody else’s body. People have the right to refuse to donate their organs, for example, even if doing so would save somebody else’s life.

          • Mary Lee

            Yes I called you a moron. Because you have shown evidence that you ARE a moron, an ignorant person who has no understanding of biology.

            Oh yes soooooo many women die fro complications. Gosh, I wonder if lions and tigers and doggies hate their unborn babies too. My guess is no.

          • Pro Choice

            It’s pro choice not pro abortion. And I will try and give you my last standing arguments right here by the collection of things you have said. You argue that human life begins a conception. I argue: There is no scientific consensus as to when human life begins. It is a matter of philosophic opinion or religious belief. The Catholic Church and the “religious right” are the backbone of the anti-abortion movement. Pro-choice religious people see anti-abortion laws as a violation of religious liberty. Abortion is a religious issue, because the stated basis of opposition to abortion is the theological question of when personhood begins. Also, religious doctrines that dictate female subservience and a childbearing role for women are the real hidden agenda of opposition to abortion. Human life is a continuum—sperm and eggs are also alive, and represent potential human beings, but virtually all sperm and eggs are wasted. Also, two-thirds of human conceptions are spontaneously aborted by nature.
            You also argue it’s murder. I argue:Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact.Religious communities have differing ideas on the definition of “person” or when abortion is morally justified. As I said to someone else in the Canadian courts, however, a fetus has consistently been found not to be a person with legal rights.If fetal rights were enshrined in law, women’s bodies, rights, and health would be subordinated to the protection of embryos. The legal consequences of such a law would be catastrophic. The best way to protect the fetus is to promote the health and well-being of women. Another is that it is morally wrong. Most people reject the position that abortion is always wrong. In fact, abortion often has positive benefits for women’s lives and health. Many people believe that bringing an unwanted child into the world is a crime, and that forcing a woman to have a child against her will is morally wrong. Many who are opposed to abortion for religious or moral reasons believe that it is wrong to impose their values by civil law on everyone.

            Margaret Sanger said, “No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her own body.” This concept is fundamental for women. Bearing a child alters a woman’s life more than anything else. Other women’s rights are hollow if women are forced to be mothers. Being born is a gift, not a right. People don’t ask to be born, and some even wish they weren’t. You also point out that it’s their own convenience or whim to have an abortion. This vindictive, self-righteous attitude stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished. Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in child abuse. Anti-abortionists trivialize motherhood and childbirth by dismissing pregnancy as a mere inconvenience. They ignore or belittle the needs of the woman and the conflict she endures in making her decision. Guilt is inflicted when compassion is needed. You and others have argued that adoption is a better alternative. A woman should be able to decide for herself. Some women do choose adoption, but many more choose single parenthood. Adoption is a difficult route for anyone to take, and it is not fair to demand that women make such a sacrifice. For a married woman, giving a baby up for adoption is virtually impossible.

            Also to be noted:
            The brain structures and nerve-cell connections that characterize the thinking and feeling parts of the brain are not completed until between the 7th and 8th months of gestation. Only after 30 weeks do the brain waves show patterns of waking consciousness when pain can be perceived. And since virtually all abortions are done in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and only a few after 16 weeks. Most late abortions are done for health reasons. Ironically, anti-choice harassment, laws, and defunding cause delays and lead to increased numbers of late abortions.

      • webtraveler2

        I completely agree with you equality. Pro-CHOICE is an individual choice. No one should be forced to have a child to make other people “happy”. It’s not their life, not their body, not their decision, not their business, and not their choice. This is an article based on a child that was wanted by a family. I’m sorry they lost their baby. But that’s not the case for everyone.

        • margaretbugg

          Yes your body is your body but that child in you is not your body. It is completely separate body.

      • Barbara Henderson

        Are you saying that is ok to execute a child for the crime of its father?

      • Nikki

        Stop using rape as an excuse to say the babies are not worth living. I was brutally raped at 14 and got pregnant and had an abortion because thats what everyone said I should do, and I am still grieving years later. The terrible deeds of the father does not make the little life any less valuable.

        • Lilian

          I am sorry for your rape, Nikki. That never should have happened to you.

        • Kathy

          Rape traumatizes a woman. Abortion kills a child and re-traumatizes the woman. I speak from personal experience.

      • Cori

        I have been sexually assaulted before and it crossed my mind that I could have been pregnant. I was terrified but I knew that what happened to me would have nothing to do with the child’s life and that they deserve every right to live as a planned baby has.

      • prolifemama

        Look… a troll!!!

      • Cherie Allgood

        So when a woman is brutally raped, it’s O.K. to have her child brutalized to death?

      • prolifemama

        How about equality as a human being, for the child conceived in rape? Many women who choose abortion in such a circumstance, say that it was like a second rape. Women who choose to parent their children or make an adoption plan for them, say that their children were the only good thing to come out of their horrific rape experience.

        We are all members of the human family, regardless of how we are conceived. We’re not members of some discriminating country club, we’re human beings, all of us, regardless of age, gender, disability, parentage, IQ – the list of irrelevant qualifiers goes on.

    • MzNelson42

      I don’t know what kind of person would think an abortion at 5 months is okay… Like you said a baby that age is just that… A BABY. I think we we should all realize that abortions before 13 weeks are not the same thing though…

  • Beth

    So very sorry for your loss. I pray for healing for you and your family. May God grant you strength.

  • Danielle McDaniel

    Sending love your way, so sorry for your loss, but so precious those few beautiful moments.

  • Brooke Nicholas

    I am also sorry that you had to go through this but it is not an excuse for making abortion illegal. What about all of the children who are willingly given up simply because their parents did not want them? Would the life of constant abuse and a lack of love really be worth the mother never having a choice in the first place? It is no ones else’s place to decide whether or not a woman has to become a mother. You are not nor will you ever be in her shoes. Women deserve a choice, it’s their lives too.

    • rosey

      Lives should be ended and began by Gods control not mans … Murder not OK for anyone… If the life is in the womb then God wants it there… No matter what’s to come for baby or Mama.God is in control and can get them through life… I feel that when we ” choose ” abortion we always regret it to some degree knowing we made a worse choice than the alternative. People are foolish fearful creatures out for convenience we should trust in God to take care of things if it’s not his will.. Babies are precious gifts I deeply regret my abortions… And deeply love my boys… Always thinking of what might have been hadn’t I been to scared to trust…. My opinion…

      • Brooke Nicholas

        Right, so it’s gods plan for women to get raped. They then, assuming abortion is illegal, are forced to raise the child of said rapist and have to support the child with the money that they earned. And sorry to say this, but not everyone believes in god. You can not speak for all women when you say that “we regret the decision”.

        • megan

          When and if you ever have a child you will understand. It is murder. No matter how far along you are. Its funny, there are more laws protecting animals then there are precious unborn babies. People like you really need help this king abortion is ok. No matter your religion, IT IS NOT OK TO KILL A CHILD. What would you think if your mother thought about aborting you. You first thought would probably be why she would want to kill you.

          • CS

            It’s also not ok to disregard women’s health. My mom was pregnant with me in college, she thought about abortion. It doesn’t bother me because that’s her choice, I wouldn’t have been born, so who on this thread would that affect? Would you care? I wonder how many of you denounce government programs that support children but are totally supportive of getting rid of abortion. Because that’s what God wants, right? “Support fetuses but disregard my other creations because why not”.

          • were4life

            Your life matters a great deal. Your life *is* precious. Every life is precious, and every life is sacred from the moment of conception. You are going off of the topic. The topic is not government assistance, but rather, “Should an innocent child be cruelly dismembered?”. Just answer, “Yes, I believe that a child should be cruelly dismembered” because that is what you are defending. Always answer the question at hand, and keep your argument germane to the topic – and the topic is the innocent child’s life, and whether he or she should be killed by being torn to pieces and beheaded. You know that pathologists who examine these children have nightmares because of the looks of extreme pain on these children’s faces? Their jaws are open, and their eyes are bulging, and their faces are contorted with the most awful grimaces. This is *not* a peaceful, benign death. This is torture – and *you* are advocating for it – torture of a small child.

          • CS

            Not all lives matter. Terrorists lives don’t. What if the choice for a women was for her to die or the fetus to die? I never said abortion is an easy choice, but it is necessary. I’m sure pathologists have nightmares about a lot of stuff they’ve seen, that’s not a reason to get rid of abortion.

          • momcubed

            So now you are comparing the life of a blameless unborn child to that of a terrorist? People will contort the truth in order to justify what they are condoning. Abortion ends an innocent life. Just give the baby up for adoption.

        • Cynthia

          One day you WILL regret it. Abortion is a selfish act. If a person can not be accountable for their actions, they should keep their legs closed. And take it from someone who WAS raped… It would be just as WRONG to punish an innocent for the sins of the father as the original act of rape itself. Killing a baby is worse than being raped. Yes. It. Is. You demand your rights so you can be free to live the irresponsible lifestyle you enjoy without being told it’s wrong. That doesn’t make it right. That is called denial. And, I’m sure a child would disagree with you, as they would like the chance to live – what about THEIR life, their RIGHT?!? With the logic you are arguing, should we just kill off anything that doesn’t have a good quality of life? Elderly? Special needs so severe they are immobile and nonverbal? Life is sacred. ALL life. No one life measures at higher value than another. Oh, I forgot, unless it inconveniences you. Then you just continue to be in denial…. Just because you don’t believe in God and in consequences doesn’t mean they aren’t VERY REAL. Stop trolling on this site, it is a beautiful story and doesn’t need your worthless two cents.

          • Caroline Mueller- Hurry

            Amen Cynthia!!! PERFECT KNOWLEDGEABLE RESPONSE!!!

          • Hannah

            I do not disagree with your opinions… However, if you are going to mention God, I would appreciate if you had gone about this comment in a more kind manner: more kind than CAPS lock and “your worthless two cents.” This is a very sensitive topic in which we should respond with tactful, carefully-thought-out messages and love. An opinion differing from your own, is not any less important.

          • Theresa

            Here’s the thing people don’t get about being pro-choice… you have to morally agree with abortion. That’s why it’s not called pro-abortion. Pro-choice is about understanding that you can’t make a choice for someone else and they have full control over that, not you. It’s pro I’m not the boss of everyone else.

            I understand your point on rape, but I had a friend that was brutally raped at the age of 10/11 and became pregnant from it. The harassment she suffered, being called a whore and a slut and so many other disgusting names left emotional and mental scars along with the painful memory of her rape. She wasn’t allowed to even consider abortion and in the end she miscarried in the end. She was admitted into a psych ward at 16 because she tried to kill herself several times because the whole mess left her completely destroyed. How can you sit there and tell me she should have gone through that? That somehow a 12 year old should be forced to live that?

          • Theresa

            “10/11

          • were4life

            Slaveholders thought that they had good reasons to justify keeping slaves too. Nazi officers thought they had good reasons to justify killing Jews too. The ISIS people think they have good reasons to justify killing Christians. Does the end justify the means?

          • Josh Dell’Aria

            I’m definitely praying for that young girl. No one deserves ever to have to go through that. However, do you think an abortion would have helped her through any of that? I would think that in her case, abortion would have only made things worse.

        • momof3

          I was raped, I got pregnant, I was not and am not “forced” to raise my child! He is not a burden! He is a perfect baby who looks exactly like me his mom! I happily stroll through the store with him spending the money I earned on adorable baby things for him. No it wasn’t God’s plan, it DEFINITELY was NOT my plan! It was the choice of the rapists, it wasn’t my choice or my babies choice but he is still my baby and I am still his mom! And as his mom I will always protect him. He isn’t just a rapists child! The rape was horrible and scaring but my baby is perfect, sweet and makes me a proud mom on a daily basis!

        • willowsprite

          First of all, it is never God’s plan that someone be raped.

          Why should an innocent child be murdered because of something evil someone else had done? You are punishing the child for the crime of another person.

          • hfurjkfokw

            Please, think about what you just said.
            If the Christian God is “all-knowing, all-powerful”, He knows very well the destined fates each and every one of us slowly descend.
            Wait, I’m already one step ahead of you: free will.
            Well, as I mentioned before (and hear too often), the Christian God knows ALL paths of your life. If you decide to rent a car one day, he knows you’ll be in an accident later that day. If you decide to walk home from the bar, he knows you’ll be mugged. The Christian God acknowledges your actions, but does not intervene. Sounds more like a high-ranked white collar boss writing “thank you!” cards to his employees than a loving super-being.

          • were4life

            Going off-topic again! This time it’s theology and free will. I would recommend reading books by Scott Hahn and Matthew Kelly for a good understanding of God’s love for you and how He loves you so much that He sent His son to die on the Cross for you. However, getting back on topic about children in the womb – their death is never justified – ever – no matter the circumstances of their conception. You are no less loved by God or anyone else on the basis of your conception circumstances. Really, why are you holding conception circumstances against children? That’s totally bizarre! Would you send a child to prison because you found out that her father was a rapist? No? However, you would put that child in the guillotine and behead her – and put her on the rack and torture her to death through dismemberment. You *would* advocate for that! How is that logical?

          • willowsprite

            Yes, God does know all and see all. And everything was perfect in the beginning when the world was created. But then sin entered the world, and death, disease, destruction and all other sorts of evil. That’s why we need a Rescuer, a Saviour. His name is Jesus, and I’d like to tell you more about him if you’d like.

        • were4life

          Project Rachel is a wonderful retreat that offers healing for post-abortion anger and grief.

    • Anna

      First off, you should never insinuate that children are given up because they are unwanted. Children placed for adoption are relinquished for so many reasons. Being able to recognize that you can’t be the person who can give your child everything they need in life, but choosing to love them so much that you give them a chance at life and happiness within another family is one of the hardest and bravest decisions a lot of girls make. And it shows a real act of love to be able to do that. Also, the mother is hardly ever choosing between her life and an infants. The woman will not die because of an unplanned pregnancy; she may not live the life she had planned, but no one is going to take her life from her. No one should get to choose if another person lives or dies, but the unborn don’t get a say at all.

      • Brooke Nicholas

        Alright, fair enough. I was not trying to generalize adoption but was giving an example of the children who do feel that way. By forcing a child upon a woman you are taking away her time and money. That woman could be trying to scrape by and taking care of a child will use force her to provide food, shelter, clothing for a child she is not prepared to provide for. Pregnancies interrupt education and carreers. A woman may be on the verge of discovering a cure for a disease or even traveling for her job. The travels and schooling must come to an end at some point if you are forced to have a child.

        • Kanilove

          “Pregnancies interrupt education and careers.”

          So a child should die to allow for the woman’s career? Which is more important, giving life or having a career? Also keeping the child is not the only option a woman has. It is possible to give birth and still have one’s career.

          • Momof3

            I have been in situations that a lot of women would say is an excuse for terminating the pregnancy. One common one was Rape, Of course no one would ever want something like this to happen to them and then get pregnant on top of it…. But the baby was not just the rapists baby, it isn’t just a child of the fathers, it has a mother! It is a part of you, it has YOUR genetics. And guess what I have MY little perfect baby boy that looks EXACTLY like ME! He is MY baby and I am his MOMMY!! He is not the sick rapist, he is a perfect innocent baby boy! And he makes me proud that he is MINE! If I am walking through a store and someone says “awe your baby is so cute!” I proudly say thank you! I think so too! Because he is mine! And I wouldn’t hurt or kill my baby weather I planned for him or not! I will not tell someone what they have to do but the rape victim excuse is not valid in my book!

          • Theresa

            But we have to take into account when the women who are raped aren’t even women yet. My friend was raped at 10/11 and got pregnant from it. She was scared and completely alone at the time. The ridicule and humiliation she suffered as well as the emotional and mental scarring still resonate with her today. Here’s the thing people don’t get about being pro-choice… you have to morally agree with abortion. That’s why it’s not called pro-abortion. Pro-choice is about understanding that you can’t make a choice for someone else and they have full control over that, not you. It’s pro I’m not the boss of everyone else.

          • were4life

            You *can* make the choice that murder is wrong for a newborn, right? You *can* make that choice for all other mothers, right? You *can* force them to take care of that child or go to prison, right? You *can* force motherhood on a mother who has already given birth, right? It’s just in the moments right before birth that you *can’t* force this decision upon them because while that child is in the birth canal, that person is denied personhood – much like slaves in the South were denied personhood because of their location – living in the South!

          • CS

            You can’t compare slavery and abortion. Abortion could very well be something about women’s health, slavery was about actual living people who have LIVED. They were forced to work and do things against their will. You’re downgrading their struggle.

          • Mr. G.

            I would suggest that forcing a woman to gestate a pregnancy is exactly like slavery – a living person is placed into involuntary servitude. Almost everything I hear from forced-birthers amounts to saying, “it’s OK to put a woman in involuntary servitude because we’re saving a baby.” In my view, there is no justification for holding a born person in involuntary servitude unless they’ve committed a crime punishable by imprisonment – which, by the way, is what the 13th Amendment says.

          • Poor, poor Gary. Leaning so heavily on a bit of loaded, emotionally manipulative hyperbole because he knows he has no more thoughtful arguments. Still in denial of his abject inability to back up the claim that pregnancy is comparable to slavery.

          • Mr. G.

            I never said that pregnancy is comparable to slavery. What I said is that being forced to carry a pregnancy is identical to slavery.

          • Very well, then make a case to back up that crappy analogy.

          • Mr. G.

            It seems very simple to me. If a woman does not wish to gestate a pregnancy but is forced to do so, she is being held in a de facto state of involuntary servitude / slavery for the benefit of the fetus and without benefit to her.

          • Eponymous1

            “That special power of loving that belongs to a woman is seen most clearly when she becomes a mother. Motherhood is the gift of God to women. How grateful we must be to God for this wonderful gift that brings such joy to the whole world, women and men alike! Yet we can destroy this gift of motherhood, especially by the evil of abortion, but also by thinking that other things like jobs or positions are more important than loving, than giving oneself to others. No job, no plans, no possessions, no idea of “freedom” can take the place of love. So anything that destroys God’s gift of motherhood destroys His most precious gift to women– the ability to love as a woman.”
            ~ Mother Theresa’s Letter to the Fourth World Conference on Women, Beijing, 1995 ~

          • Jed

            Beautiful! Thank you so much for posting it.

          • No, it’s that the method by which she wants to escape pregnancy happens to evil. It does not follow that just because we’re in a situation we dislike, we can therefore do whatever we want to get out of it. Ethics don’t just disappear when you want them to.

          • Mr. G.

            I would suggest that you’re in no position to criticize others for leaning on loaded, emotionally manipulative hyperbole until you cease to do so yourself.

          • The difference is that what I say is factually accurate, as I’ve explained to you repeatedly. You don’t bring any substance beneath the hyperbole.

          • CS

            You can’t dictate what is and isn’t a valid excuse. This is part of the problem. All women are different.

          • willowsprite

            Yes, all women are different. But all babies in the womb are the same – helpless, defenceless, and can’t speak for themselves.

          • jenmoz93

            I’m sorry but why is a child in the womb, which resembles nothing close to a human in the first trimester, have more rights than a living woman?

          • willowsprite

            Scientifically, we know that from the earliest stages of development, the unborn are distinct, living, and whole human beings. Leading embryology textbooks confirm this.

            Philosophically, there is no morally significant difference between the embryo you once were and the adult you are today. Differences of size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency are not relevant to whether a human being has less rights or importance than another human being.

          • jenmoz93

            Did you know when you are first conceived you are technically just an anus and the mouth. That resembles a human being?

          • willowsprite

            No, it doesn’t resemble a human being, it IS a human being. And what you look like doesn’t determine whether you have a right to live or not.

          • paige

            Funny, I’ve met plenty of adults who are “just an anus and a mouth” long after they leave the womb.

          • Mr. G.

            you forgot, “nor do they have a right to force a woman to continue to sustain them in the womb.” A woman has a right to the integrity of her own person. If she wants to have a foreign object or being removed, I support that decision whether it’s a brussels sprout, a space alien, a baby, or a chocolate chip cookie regardless of the consequences to the foreign object / being.

          • momcubed

            It is not an foreign object, It is a baby that was invited to live there when the woman consented to sex. Be honest with yourself. You are okay with killing babies. If not, then you have to reflect upon the mental gymnastics you go through to justify to yourself that it is okay. It is because deep down you know that killing babies is wrong.

          • Mr. G.

            I beg to differ. Unless she had sex in hopes of getting pregnant, there was no invitation.

            Regardless of the morality of killing fetuses, to me it’s never worse than holding a woman in involuntary servitude to benefit one. No amount of attempting to distract what’s happening to a woman by forcing her to gestate a fetus will convince me otherwise. It’s like you’re saying, “Don’t even think about the woman’s life and health. This is ALL about the fetus. The woman doesn’t matter.”

          • momcubed

            Sex=reproduction. It is the main function of the act. Unless you are mentally impaired you understand what happens when a sperm penetrates an egg. A zygote, tiny human, is created. You use terms like “involuntary servitude” to help you feel better about killing tiny humans.

          • Mr. G.

            As far as I’m concerned, the main function of having sex is pleasurable enjoyment of each others bodies. Reproduction only enters into the picture if, and only if, the couple wishes to procreate – which most of the time, we don’t. In my view, to qualify as a “human being”, the first thing that has to happen is to be born alive. Since a fetus has not yet been born, it doesn’t quality as a “human being” as far as I’m concerned. I don’t feel at all bad about killing fetuses if a woman doesn’t want to gestate it – i.e. I have no need to “feel better” about it. I already feel quite good about supporting a woman in that choice. I use the term involuntary servitude to illuminate the state those who wish to outlaw abortion are willing to place women in. There are those who try to tell us not to look at the woman – that it’s all about the fetus. I disagree.

          • Of course, being scientifically false, your “view” of what isn’t a human being deserves no more respect than the views that the earth is flat, only 6,000 years old, and that the sun revolves around it.

          • Mr. G.

            You are, of course, free to reject my opinion. I can live with that. I can also live without adopting yours.

          • willowsprite

            It isn’t “our opinion,” it’s scientific fact. Only human beings can create human beings.

          • Mr. G.

            I don’t see “can create” as an obligation to create.

          • willowsprite

            Neither did I. I was speaking about science. Biologically, only humans can make humans. You can’t reject what is a scientific fact.

          • Mr. G.

            So what? There is no science that says humans are obligated to make humans.

          • willowsprite

            Again, I didn’t say anything about obligation.

          • Mr. G.

            That’s odd – I thought your whole line of thinking is that woman are required to breed when you say so.

          • willowsprite

            I merely stated that it is a scientific fact that human beings create human beings. Thus, an unborn child is human. You deny that fact and say that you’re only human if you’re born.

          • Mr. G.

            In my view, it takes more than having human DNA to be a human being. 1st and foremost, it takes being born.

          • willowsprite

            Your view doesn’t change scientific fact. Science says the unborn are human. Period.

          • Mr. G.

            …which does not change my opinion with regard to the morality of abortion or the immorality of holding women in involuntary servitude. You’re apparently having difficulty understanding that I don’t care if a fetus is “human” or not. Even if I concede that a fetus is human, it still doesn’t justify holding a woman in involuntary servitude on its behalf.

          • willowsprite

            The very fact that the unborn are human gives it the right to life! If the mother feels like a servant or slave, that does not justify murder!

          • Mr. G.

            No, it doesn’t give it a right to life – witness that somewhere north of 75% of zygotes are never born. We’re not talking about “feels like a slave” – if a woman is forced to gestate a fetus she IS, in fact, a slave. For that matter, abortion is not murder.

          • willowsprite

            Giving life to another human being is not slavery. Being a slave means you are forced to do manual labour with nothing to show for it, no benefits for you. Having a child brings new life to the world. You’ve created another human being. That is not slavery.

            Abortion is murder because it takes the life of an innocent, defenceless human being.

          • Mr. G.

            Slaves are commonly fed and housed by their masters. Think of something you absolutely do not want. Now imagine yourself as a slave, after being held in servitude against your will, being given that something by someone telling you what a wonderful benefit your work has given you. Tell me how grateful you are for that – tell me what benefit you see. Or is your honest response, “Thanks for nothing”?

          • willowsprite

            If my work was allowing another person to grow until, nine months later they don’t need my work? Yes.

          • Mr. G.

            Then you chose it, and that’s OK with me.

          • There really isn’t any talking point to dumb for you to regurgitate. The frequency of natural death among any given group has never been a valid justification for deliberately killing.

            Seriously, try doing your own thinking for once instead of just reciting your ideology’s script.

          • Eponymous1

            “If a mother can kill her own child – what is left for me to kill you and you to kill me – there is nothing between.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Mr. G.

            What a delightful truism. “Nothing between” does not make them identical. e.g. there is no letter in the alphabet between A and B, but A is not B.

          • A view for which you have no supporting evidence, because all the supporting evidence weighs against you.

            Tell me, when did you decide that an “ordained Christian minister’ (*snort*) has no moral obligation to be honest.

          • If you’re content with your intellectual mediocrity, so be it.

          • momcubed

            What you are saying is that a fetus magically transforms into a human being relative to its location? It is human no matter where it is. It has the same exact genetic makeup inside or outside of the womb. It is able to feel pain, respond to his/her mother’s voice, and has brain function. You tell us we do not look at the woman, but you refuse to look at the other human in this equation. You are sentencing a tiny human to death when their are so many other options.
            The main function of sex is reproduction. Any scientist will tell you this. It is pass on our genetic material to the next generation and populate the earth. The problem is that you care more about your feelings and inconveciences than human life.

          • Hi,

            Just a heads-up: don’t expect to get anywhere with Mr. G here. Several of us have been at it with him for a while now, and it’s become abundantly clear that he doesn’t care whether anything he says is actually true. He doesn’t care what science says at all; in a nutshell, he argues that the only thing that matters is how he feels about it, and because he takes relativism to truly insane degrees, he pretty much reserves the right to redefine any and every word he wants.

          • Mr. G.

            As I said before, until it’s born, it’s not a “human being” as far as I’m concerned. All of the scientific blather by forced-birthers is an attempt to distract from the fact of placing a woman in involuntary servitude – not matter how scientifically correct a statement is, it’s immaterial when placed next to delivering a woman from involuntary servitude.

            In terms of perpetuating our species, the main function of sex is reproduction. All species that survive have some amount of surplus reproductive capacity. That we have capacity does not require us to utilize it. We are a species that has been able to survive when 50% of our offspring did not live to reach reproductive age. Our technology has thrown that massively out of whack. We already have more than enough people to ensure survival – so much so that carrying it even further might actually be detrimental to the ultimate survival of our species.

          • mr.T

            If a baby is not considered a “human being” until it is born alive, how can our society justify prosecuting and sentencing someone to prison, or even death, for killing a pregnant woman if it can not be proven that she intended to take her pregnancy through childbirth? If I kill a pregnant woman I am charged with taking 2 lives. If the mother decides to take the life of the baby, she is charged with nothing. This whole argument has boiled down to 2 sides of “Life” and “Choice.” Women have the choice when they decide to have sex (whether they are ready for a child or not) and risk a pregnancy. However, they should not be allowed to determine the consequences of that choice especially when it involves taking the “choice” from another.

          • ANOTHER straw-man! Malice isn’t very Christian, Gary. And at this point, your habitual dishonesty is really looking like an addiction you should seek professional help for.

          • david ramseur

            Did you even look at Walters picture? Anyone who claims that a mother has the right to play judge, jury, and executioner; to play God and to put a hit out on this defenseless person lacks all moral credibility. Nobody in their right mind is listening to your advocacy and support of 1st degree premeditated murder!

          • Mr. G.

            I have considerable compassion for his mother who lost a wanted pregnancy. I also have compassion for women who, whatever their reason, do not wish to accept being forced to gestate a fetus. I am not much moved by a dead fetus whether the miscarriage was unintentional or intentional.

          • david ramseur

            You do realize that your argument (it is the mothers right) can be used to justify murdering any and all types of dependent people (the handicapped, sick, and elderly). I mean, many of the good people who take care of them did not wish or intend to do so. They are just as burdened as any mother, sometimes more so in regards to time and resources that must be devoted to who they take care of. But you may say, there are institutions that can take care of these people, where people lead voluntary professions to take care of them. In response, there are also many families eagerly trying to adopt children. Face it, there is absolutely no justification of the murder of a human being. Maybe you are putting up this front because of guilt you feel in a past decision. This is the good news: our God is kind and merciful and will forgive any man their sins if the acknowledge, confess, repent of them, and trust in the savior Jesus Christ!

          • Mr. G.

            Apparently some have thought what you claim my argument is justified murdering a born person and have done it. To my knowledge, the defense has never worked for the killing of a born person.

            There are things I’ve done for which I’ve felt shame and guilt. None of them were/are connected in any way to abortion. As an ordained Christian minister, I also love to spread the news that God loves us and forgives us

          • david ramseur

            As a professed minister may I suggest you read and meditate on Psalm 139:13-14 then ask yourself when in Gods view life begins. Then ask yourself whether or not it is right to extinguish an innocent life that God has granted.

          • Mr. G.

            What makes you think I haven’t already done so?

          • Because we’re familiar with your comment history, fraud.

          • Mr. G.

            Apparently your alleged familiarity has led you astray from the truth.

          • Keep pretending. You know better. Whether you decide you want to be a decent person some day is up to you. Currently, you’re not even close.

          • Comment history says otherwise. A pity you can’t control what other people read and can verify for themselves.

          • david ramseur

            Your stance and argument make me think you have not. For if you have, the power of the Holy Spirit should have convicted your heart in light of that verse from God’s word. The bible reads the reader and roots out the strongholds of sin in the person’s life. This is very hard to take and offends the person who will not submit to God’s teaching.

          • Mr. G.

            So you’re asserting that because I don’t agree with you, that’s the case for me? Sorry, David, but you aren’t in a position to speak of that with any authority.

          • david ramseur

            You are upset because you are being called out as a supposed minister who is not walking in obedience to God’s word. “For you created my innermost being, you knit me together in my mothers womb, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” Psalm 139:13-14. So you believe it is ok to destroy a wonderful work of the Lord? God knew you before you were even formed in your mothers womb. You are infinitely valuable in God’s eyes, so much so that He took crucifixion for you undeservedly! He loves these little ones immensely and will not hold guiltless those who do the work of the devil by murdering them, for the devil was a murderer from the beginning. Or don’t you know that you are not your own (mothers included), that you have been bought at a great price. We do not have a right to do whatever we want with our bodies. Our free will allows for us to do whatever we want with our bodies, such as commuting the atrocity of abortion. But we will have to face the consequences of that decision, and if not repented of and given to Jesus to put to death we will certainly die in our sin. I don’t know if you appreciate the gravity of such a consequence. Your conscience bears witness to the truth about abortion just as those who have gone thru with that decision are often crippled by the guilt. You are just suppressing the voice of truth though. The good news is that nobody is beyond redemption while they still have breadth in their lungs. And God can restore and renew you in the image of His son!

          • Mr. G.

            I am being called out for not complying with your understanding of God’s Word. When your understanding matches the truth of His Word, you might be surprised.

          • david ramseur

            Our God is not a God of confusion. The standard, go to response of a person who refuses to submit to Gods word and thus walk in paths of righteousness is this: well that is your interpretation. As if it is easy to come up with many different interpretations of God’s word. Simply, the text means what it says. It does not have a meaning contrary to what it says. Throughout the Bible life is seen to be started at conception. But even without the Bible one can understand that a growing human being with all of its DNA and cellular information being there from conception is a human being. The scripture says that if you kill a man, by man should your blood be shed. Cain knew this when he killed his brother. It is the justification for capital punishment, if you murder an innocent you forfeit your own life. Proper exegesis of God’s word is going with the clearest, straight forward understanding of the text you can possibly arrive at: history is treated as historical account, prophecy as prophecy, commandment as commandment, parable as parable, poetry as poetry. A child can properly understand God’s word, it is that clear. But we can learn new truths and insights for the rest of our lives, it is that deep. You are arguing that a person made in the image of God can murder another person made in the image of God because they don’t want to have to take care of that other person made in the image of God. Oh the horror of maybe (since the child can be given up for adoption) taking care of someone else! I mean taking care of someone else and showing sacrificial love is not a Christ like thing to do is it! Well, keeping the baby until it can be adopted or raising the child yourself is Christlike. Murder is of the devil who came to steal, kill, and destroy. What is another work of the devil? Casting doubt on God’s word, for he is also the father of lies. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you mr. G as you come to grips with God’s view on life. I hope you do well.

          • Mr. G.

            Those of us who have not idolized scripture don’t share all of your views, David. You might not like that. I can live with that.

          • david ramseur

            When you do not believe in the Word of God you move into dangerous waters my friend. For if all of it is not true, and some of it is actually false, then none of it can be trusted. When one has this view of scripture their interpretations become mere subjective opinions guided by emotion as opposed to logic. If you don’t believe the written Word (god’s revelation) how can you believe in the Word made flesh? Jesus said that not one jot or tittle of the law (moral, not ceremonial or ancient Israeli governmental) would pass away. Additionally, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Furthermore, God’s word has power. If you don’t believe in His revelation to us you inevitably will make Him into your own image. Making God how you wish Him to be is idolatry. He is who He is, has stated who He is, and has reliably preserved His revelation to us thru the ages. Men wrote down this revelation as they were carried along by the spirit. “For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It penetrates even to the dividing of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and additudes of the heart.” Hebrews 4:11. The next verse is a warning to those who decide to go their own way “Nothing in all of creation is hidden from God’s sight, everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account.” Hebrews 4:12. Your title as a minister means nothing if you lean upon your own understanding. I suggest you take proverbs 3:5-6 to heart when it comes to your view of reality. Grace be with you!

          • Mr. G.

            Most of systematic theology is about subjective opinions that have, by force, waved the “magic wand” of “orthodox” waved over themselves. The first criterion a book had to pass to be included in the NT Canon was that it supported the theological position of the faction that had used polemics, slander, assault, book burning, and murder in the battle to claim the title of “orthodox”. The Bible contains numerous mutually exclusive statements – where, if one is true, the other cannot be true. I’m not talking about philosophical paradoxes that need to be held in tension rather than resolved, but outright contradictory statements alleged as facts. As such I very much agree with you that the Bible cannot be trusted as a universally applicable “God’s Word” thru the text alone even if a “systematic” theological approach or “proper” hermeneutics are applied to them. That said, I also see the Bible as one text among many thru which the Holy Spirit can speak to individuals. If you hear the Holy Spirit thru the Bible, I say, “Wonderful!”, but kindly keep in mind that those words are for YOU and not everyone else in creation. Others need to hear other things. Mind your own soul. Be gentle with those of others.

          • david ramseur

            Do you have any examples of mutually exclusive contradictions?

          • Mr. G.

            Almost forgot you – sorry about that. Example #1 the 2 creation stories in Genesis. One says God created all the critters then the humans male and female in his own image. The other version says God created the man, then the critters, then the female by taking a piece from the man. And of course, there’s the outright falsehood in Gen 1 that claims the earth was created before the sun and all the stars were.

          • david ramseur

            There are not two creation stories. God made man on the sixth day. He created them male and female. How exactly did he create female? Out of man. She is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones. Nothing confusing here. Man was tasked with naming all living things and taking dominion over them. He could not find a suitable partner amongst them, no equal. So God put him in a deep sleep and formed Eve out of his rib. So God is responsible for creating man and woman, he created man on the 6th day. What observable scientific evidence do you have that the sun and stars are older than the Earth by the way? Understanding that you are a self proclaimed Christian minister who doesn’t believe the Bible is any different than any other book, that a woman can choose whether another human being lives or dies because she is sustaining it; why do you consider yourself a Christian? What do you believe makes Christianity exceptional and exclusively true? How can anyone trust that the answers you give are not your mere subjective wishes apart from God’s revealed objective truth? I mean, do you just preach what you unilaterally deem to be true or like while you ignore other scriptures that you unilaterally deem to not be true or not like? I will trust in God’s word over man’s for he is entirely faithful and trustworthy. I have found no contradictions in the Bible. But in the end times people will heap teachers unto themselves who speak what their itching ears want to hear. These are the false prophets who depart from the original teachings. One thing I’ll tell you is that God’s word has remained unchanged like his nature and will remain the same forever. Are you going to claim you know better than God by casting aside His word (thus calling him a liar)? The Holy Spirit affirms Jesus AND the validity of the word of God. So, if you are motivated by a force that denies scripture it is not the Holy Spirit. Anyways, back to the original topic, how in good conscience can you claim that abortion is morally legit? Just because you think it is does not make it so, just like the truth of the Bible stands whether you believe it or not.

          • Mr. G.

            There are two versions of creation – one in Gen 1 and a different one in Gen 2. Read both and pay attention this time. They spell out a different order of creation.

          • Mr. G.

            The oldest version (in Gen 2) traces back to the time of the writing of most of Genesis – a little before 1000 BC. The newer version in Gen 1 was added during the time of the Babylonian exile – 590’ish BC.

          • Mr. G.

            I don’t believe that Christianity is exceptional or, as a religion, exclusively true. It’s ironic how often people who can’t even see the contradictions in the Bible trot out that verse about itching ears. It applies so well to themselves and their like-minded fellows.

          • david ramseur

            So why are you not a Buddhist or Hindu teacher? Why are you not an imam? You claim the title of minister, a servant of God in Christ’s church yet you don’t even believe the exclusive claims that Jesus made. (I am the way, the truth, and the life – no one comes to the father except by me) do you believe that people who don’t believe that Christ died for their sins will still be saved? Do you believe that people can save themselves apart from God’s mercy and provision in Jesus’s atoning sacrifice? How can heaven remain perfect if imperfect lawbreakers who justly deserve God’s wrath are allowed in? You are a feel good, emotional, truth-is-relative universalist walking in the way of Oprah, not God. You are a non born again infiltrater of God’s church who is self decieved. This makes me sad for you and those you are leading astray.

          • Mr. G.

            Well, let’s see – where to start – for one thing, although I can see how hearing such a thing is the only thing that will get thru to some people. I don’t believe there’s any actual truth in the doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement. i.e. Jesus’ death did not change God’s view of mankind one iota. That pretty much washes all of that jazz about “God’s wrath” down the sewer along with it. Heaven remains perfect because imperfect people remove themselves by being imperfect. It’s not like we can’t come and go from there as many times as we like after death in this life. The Gospel of John (written by we-don’t-really-know-who) has the most extravagant claims of Jesus’ divinity, but I don’t think a case can be made that even half of the things attributed to Jesus in the book were actually said by Jesus. Gospel of John is a product of its time. They were being thrown out of the synagogues for their beliefs. That’s most likely why, in addition to some pretty great spiritual insights, John is also the most anti-Semitic gospel.

          • david ramseur

            Message to the reader: You have just seen the fulfillment of end times prophecy. In the last days false teachers will arise and decieve many. But why will you destroy yourself mr G? With beliefs like this I can see why you would think that abortion is no big deal. May God open your eyes. That is all.

          • Mr. G.

            Now all you have to do is figure out who the false teachers really are and if there’s actually any truth in those end times prophecies.

          • MamaBear

            David, you did a wonderful job of presenting the gospel.
            I am sure you are right about Mr. G. being a false teacher. I fear there are many others like him in our present day churches.
            I cannot imagine any honest reason why someone who does not believe that Jesus died to save us from sin, that the Bible is God’s Word, would even want to claim the name of Christian.

          • Mr. G.

            Perhaps that’s because your imagination is so often not honest.

          • MamaBear

            “4 Whom are you mocking?
            Against whom do you open your mouth wide
            and stick out your tongue?
            Are you not children of transgression,
            the offspring of deceit,
            5 you who burn with lust among the oaks,[a]
            under every green tree,
            who slaughter your children in the valleys,
            under the clefts of the rocks?”

            Your mocking and insults, your denial of Christ’s sacrificial death while claiming to be one of His ministers, your conversations full of sexual innuendos on other sites, and your involvement with the slaughter of innocent children through abortion……..there is still time to repent. God can cleanse and heal.
            21 “There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”

          • Mr. G.

            Few things are more fun than play-acting in a way the elicits the outwardly disdainful / inwardly longing looks of religious prigs. We know we’re joking around. You think we’re serious. The joke is on you. Who do we mock? Look in a mirror. How’s that peace thing working out for you?

          • Your excuses for blatantly being a Christian in name only are getting lamer and lamer.

          • Mr. G.

            Calvin, would you please be so kind as to fax or mail me a copy of your appointment as Sole Arbiter of What Defines a Christian signed by an official having the authority to do so? Perhaps we can discuss that further after you’ve proffered your credentials?

          • Ah, the faux appeal to authority, another hallmark of the sophist. It takes no special credentials or superhuman senses to see what any competent reading of your own words makes plain.

            A real Christian would feel a moral obligation to be honest; you do not. A real Christian would honor God’s commandment against murder; you do not. A real Christian would recognize the infinite value of all God’s children begins at the very first moments of their existence; you do not.

            You can pretend you haven’t been discredited on each of these points several dozen times over during your time on LAN. We both know better.

          • Mr. G.

            Ah, the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. You’re the one apparently speaking from some authority. Hint: “discredited” is not defined as “because I say so”

          • Neither is a comment record hundreds of comments long. You realize that by pretending “because I say so” is the the sole basis for the case against you, you’re only further demonstrating your dishonesty?

            It’s like you’re not even trying not to be slime.

          • Also, apparently you’re not even bright enough to process the fact that nationalities aren’t analogous to belief systems, which ARE defined by how many true beliefs an adherent holds.

          • Mr. G.

            But that fallacy does describe all attempts to discredit others because their behavior and/or beliefs do not adhere to a standard that exists only in the mind of the claimant and, perhaps, a few of his/her friends. If I tried to apply how I see Christianity to you and made the statement, “You’re not a REAL Christian” or “A REAL Christian {something a Christian under my understanding does/says/believes), I would be making as big a fool of myself as you have of yourself by making such statement.

          • You can keep pretending that your bastardization of theology isn’t the fringe.

            You can keep pretending that the slaughter of God’s children is somehow compatible with the God who teaches that “thou shalt not murder,” that He hates “hands that shed innocent blood,” and that “Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him.”

            You can keep pretending that being created in God’s image means nothing.

            You can keep pretending that intentionally taking innocent life isn’t among the gravest evils possible in his eyes, and that willfully, unrepentantly promoting grave evil in direct opposition of His word is somehow irrelevant to one’s Christian standing.

            You can keep pretending your heretical and evil belief in a pro-choice Christianity is rooted in something deeper than your own hubris.

            You can keep pretending you haven’t been schooled on theology in excruciating detail dozens of times over.

            But what you can’t do is expect this murderous, narcissistic filth to fly when the day finally comes that you’re called to explain all of this to the God you’ve rejected for so long while pretending to follow.

            Don’t say you weren’t warned.

          • Mr. G.

            Would it help you if I admitted that “I’m not REAL Christian” and that “I’m just a no-special-kind-of Christian”? Then you can be a “REAL Christian” – which, I might point out, I’ve never claimed I was.

            While I won’t deny that my theology is not widely popular, I would call you out on something a bit: characterizing my theology as a “bastardization” is the same sort of Argument From Authority hogwash that those coveting the label of “orthodox” have used from the beginning – claiming that any difference was actually a divergence that began at and then fell away from their version of “truth”.

          • I love this — you’re not even self-aware enough to realize you’re using a false equivalence within mere hours of accusing me of the very same fallacy! The mere fact that people have claimed a monopoly on interpreting Christianity for underhanded purposes does not automatically mean that the same all claims that there are objectively right and wrong answers on specific questions are automatically invalid.

          • Mr. G.

            Another comprehension failure on your part, Cal. I’m basing my view of “real Christian” on YOUR portrayal of it. With these posts, I’m addressing that and only that.

          • It’s almost cute how you still think you’re addressing anything.

          • Mr. G.

            As if your fallacy-laden tirades are addressing anything?

          • Remarkable. Your replies are getting even lazier, less mature and less related to the content you’re ostensibly responding to the longer this goes on. At this rate I wonder if it’s only a matter of time until we see you devolve to entire comments comprised of nothing but typed-out grunts.

          • Mr. G.

            I’m sure you can reference the content I’m responding to. Why bother with repeating it? I’ve informed you that I reject Christianity as you present it. That’s a straight-forward statement of fact. Let me give you another: I’m not interested in debating any of it with you. That would be pointless. Your mind is already made up and I am quite clear about why I reject it. Your vague “don’t say you haven’t been warned” is, whether you know it or not, quite empty.

          • You feigning ignorance about what I and others have already spent hundreds of words referencing and refuting you on: check.

            You’re in sheer denial about the moral and intellectual worthlessness of your worldview, and that your low character has been overwhelmingly exposed. Come back to me when you’ve outgrown that.

          • Mr. G.

            So we each think the other’s worldview is morally and intellectually worthless. Curious: are you claiming that you’re not in denial about the moral and intellectual worthlessness of your own worldview?

          • The difference between us is that I back up my views with reason and evidence; you spend most of your time making up asinine excuses for why reason and evidence shouldn’t apply to you.

          • Mr. G.

            If you didn’t attempt to portray your reasons and evidence as the only reasons and evidence available when they clearly aren’t, you might have something there. – as it is, you’ve got nothing unique or special. I’d love to be around when one of the things you don’t know you don’t know pop into your brain. It might be fun to watch.

          • And I’d love to be around when you realize just how unimpressed God will be with your dishonesty and sophistry.

          • Mr. G.

            There seems little doubt that someone will experience a revelation at that point. I’m going to do my best to not giggle if it turns out to be you.

          • Keep on dreaming, fake Christian.

          • Mr. G.

            Dishonest, Calvin – you know very well I’ve never tried to fake being what you call a Christian. Ad hominems only prove one thing – that the utter is out of ammo.

          • More stupidity. It’s not that you merely fake “what I call” a Christian — it’s that your morals and positions disqualify you from ANY legitimate definition of Christianity. There are shades of gray and room for differing good-faith interpretations on many aspects of the faith — slaughtering God’s children is not among them.

          • Mr. G.

            Because YOU define “legitimate definition” of Christianity? I’ve asked you to present the credentials granting you that authority because I won’t bow to your attempts to do so without real evidence. Please forward them at your earliest convenience.

          • It’s called Biblical literacy, you dishonest idiot. No special credentials are necessary to be familiar with Christianity’s stance on the shedding of innocent blood, multiple examples of which I have given you. You haven’t given any substantive defense of your decision to reject what Christianity unambiguously tells you on the subject.

          • Mr. G.

            I hate to have to tell you this but the Bible does not define Christianity for all Christians. Nor is the Bible granted any particular authority by all Christians. YOUR ignorance does not define me as a “dishonest idiot”. I need offer no “substantive defense” of my decision to reject your understanding of what it means to me to be a Christian. I have no interest in debating my decision to reject that with you. Nor am I interested in your attempts to persuade me to not reject it.

          • This admission more than suffices to conclusively discredit you in the eyes of all serious Christians. Thank you.

          • Mr. G.

            OK, Calvin. I don’t think I ever tried to pretend to be a “serious” Christian either. How many, “So what”‘s does that make for me vis-a-vis your opinions as to what constitutes evidence and morality?

          • Your obliviousness to the self-defeating nature of replies like this is remarkable. No amount of lazy scare quotes and so-whats can ward off the obvious fact that you’re not ANY kind of Christian. You’re a petulant egotist who derives some sort of selfish value out of the label, yet doesn’t really respect Christianity enough to make any sincere attempt to understand or follow it — certainly not enough to let it change your assumptions or preferences, rather than the other way around. The moment an aspect of Christianity conflicts with what you wish it had taught, you throw out the former in favor of the latter. To truly follow God is to answer such conflicts with “not my will but thine.” You consistently do the opposite.

            You’re no more a Christian than someone in a stolen uniform is a police officer. I don’t know what you get out of identifying with a faith you disbelieve and emphatically reject, but wallowing in denial about the truth isn’t doing yourself any good in the long term.

          • Mr. G.

            You’re so utterly oblivious to that variations of what Christianity can look like, it’s almost comical. I take that back – it IS comical – QUITE comical. If someone whose judgement and wisdom I have respect for told me something like, “If you want to be a Christian, you must subscribe to something that Calvin Freiburger acknowledges as a Christian, I would offer an immediate “No thanks.”. What you may not appreciate, Calvin, is that I have carefully examined your belief system – from the perspective of “Your will, not mine, be done”, and I have found it utterly wanting and rejected it.

          • Let’s cut to the chase, Gary: I know you’re lying. You know you’re lying. But the thing that should concern you is that God knows you’re lying too. It’s almost as you’re daring Him to send you to hell.

          • Mr. G.

            The Chase: you’re so ignorant you call things you don’t even know you don’t know “lying”. I don’t so much look down on you for that as pity you. But it is difficult to keep from laughing at times. Here’s a hint for you: God isn’t sentencing anyone to hell – not now, not ever. Most folks who end up in hell sent themselves there. The ones who decide to leave hell are those who finally realize that the hell they’re in is their own creation, not God’s. Those who don’t leave hell remain oblivious of that forever.

          • Denial might be more effective if not for the fact that most of the people reading this exchange and comparing your characterizations against the actual text are, y’know, literate.

          • Mr. G.

            “literate” – mostly at approximately the same level as you – which is to say they have no more idea how wildly ignorant they are than you do.

          • Basset_Hound

            Not only that, but it seems that the only reason he shows up on LAN and other conservative web sites is to mock, ridicule and antagonize those who DO want to follow God and take Christianity seriously.

          • Mr. G.

            As far as what I’ve seen as referred to as being a “real Christian” goes, you can have it / I want no part of it. I resist the temptation to suggest that I wish it would disappear from the face of the earth because I don’t want to see how horrible “real Christians” would behave without that external check constraining them.

          • Mr. G.

            Nor is “dishonest” defined as “does not agree with the authority I prefer to defer to”.

          • See? Your lies aren’t even clever.

          • Mr. G.

            Correction: that may be the way YOU define dishonest, but many other people have a somewhat different definition that quickly lets the air out of the balloon you’re trying so hard to inflate.

          • And again: “many other people” also believe nonsense like Holocaust denial. Doesn’t mean they’re not full of crap. I am satisfied that the comment history speaks for itself to whoever decides to compare your revisionism to the actual sequence of events.

          • Mr. G.

            Now the “False Equivalence” attempt to discredit? Please. You’re flinging logical fallacies all of the place. Do yourself a favor and take a Logic 101 class from a reputable school.

          • As usual, you’re fumbling with terms and ideas you haven’t the foggiest grasp of or regard for, making yourself look like even more of a hypocritical fool. If you were actually fit to pass a reputable Logic 101 class, you would comprehend that I never suggested Holocaust denial and your claims are even slightly equivalent in any way except for the one aspect in which you said something that actually IS equally applicable to Holocaust denial. The mere fact that “many other people have a somewhat different definition” of something says nothing about the validity of their claim. Of course, being a simpleton who hates logic whenever it gives him results he doesn’t want, I’m not expecting you to wise up to that anytime soon.

          • Mr. G.

            Again the straw man – Flailing Fallacies On Parade.

          • Again you have no answer for your discredited idiocy, so you just pretend there must be a fallacy somewhere.

          • Mr. G.

            If you’re unable to provide those credentials, may I suggest that prefacing your remarks with an appropriate qualifier acknowledging that you have no real authority would be far more honest? e.g. “In my opinion” or “As I see it” or “I think”

          • Mr. G.

            Faith in the truth of the Bible is not necessary to be a Christian. My faith is in God, not any book written by man.

          • david ramseur

            Yeah, but which god are you believing in? The one you made up? There is only one true living God and He has revealed himself so that men are without excuse. There is no way to be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ, the sinless 100% God / 100% man who has made a way for god’s justice and mercy to be fully extended. Apart from this you are condemned already because you have not believed in the name of God’s one and only son. Those who will know God will humble themselves and lean not on their own understanding. They will live for Him 100% by their fruit you will know them, and I’m sorry but abortion is a bad fruit.

          • Mr. G.

            I see the words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” quite differently from the way you perceive them. That changes a lot. I do not lean on my own understanding – nor my own interpretation (understanding) of scriptures (canonical or otherwise) nor that of my buddies.

          • Mr. G.

            I believe in the God who has revealed “himself” (although I feel odd referring to a gendered image) to me. I’m not looking to find excuses or make them. I am not condemned. I am loved.

          • Openly hating and rejecting what He tells you about murder and dishonesty is a funny way of showing that supposed belief.

          • Mr. G.

            Example #2 – one gospel says Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem for a census when Quirinias was governor of Syria. The other mentions no travel and says that Joseph and Mary fled to avoid the slaughter of infants ordered by Herod. The problem? Quirinias did not become governor of Syria until after Herod’s death. # One gospel says Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt. The other says they dropped by Jerusalem to present Jesus at the temple on their way back to Nazareth. There are MANY more such examples.

          • MamaBear

            Mr. G. has been through many of these same issues repeatedly with several of us.
            I like how you write, David, hope you stick around LAN. Welcome.

          • Basset_Hound

            Oh yeah, MamaBear….you could say a lot about how “gentle” the Wonderful Enlightened “Mr G” has been “with the souls of others”….

            So could Calvin….
            and PJ….
            and Tullia….
            and quite a few others….

            However I would agree with you. I like the way David writes, and I hope he’ll visit us again.

          • MamaBear

            And then there are all those “gentle” names Mr. G. has for conservative Bible believing Christians.

          • Basset_Hound

            And all those delightful metaphors and analogies.

          • And spreading the exact opposite of what God tells you about murder and bearing false witness. No legitimate church would keep a con man like you on if they knew your open contempt for so many actual Christian teachings.

          • Mr. G.

            The churches where I’ve served would be very surprised to be told they’re not legitimate. And, btw, I’ve always been completely open about my position vis-a-vis reproductive choice and abortion as well as doctrinal matters – Christianity is a VERY diverse religion. a number of large denominations endorse choice at the denominational level.

          • No legitimate interpretation of Christianity condones abortion. Sadly, it’s not surprising that you could find enough so-called “Christians” to pretend otherwise — lots of people are only in it because like the benefits and superficial trappings of faith, but have no intention of actually being faithful to whatever tenets of it they find inconvenient.

          • Eponymous1

            “If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, rather, to use violence to get what they want.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • MamaBear

            Watch out David, he is pro-assisted suicide, too.

          • Kacee W.

            Kudos momcubed, the “choice” in the pro-choice campaign should be way before the child is even conceived. :)

          • Mary A. Daniels

            Exactly.

          • We know you can’t back up the “object” part of your newspeak, so let’s see if you can explain in what way an organism created by her basic biological processes functioning correctly and sustained by the natural processes and structures of her own body is “foreign.”

          • Mr. G.

            Regardless of origin, what part of “not part of her person” are you having difficulty comprehending as foreign?

          • Kacee W.

            Sir, I hate to correct you, but the umbilical cord DOES connect the baby to the mother, therefore, until the baby can live and sustain itself without the said connection, it IS part of her person.

          • Mr. G.

            The umbilical cord is that part of the fetus by which it attaches itself to the mother’s uterus to affect nourishment and waste removal. It is NOT part of the woman’s body / person.

          • were4life

            Baby – the polite term – the loving term is baby. This is a child we are speaking of. Have a little decency and respect for the life of the child, please.

          • Mr. G.

            If a woman loves the fetus inside her, then she might well refer to it in polite or loving terms. If she prefers to not be placed in involuntary servitude for its benefit, I think she has other matters more important to her on her mind and may not feel particularly or even at all loving toward it.

          • were4life

            And so you would agree that it is polite and justified to use racial slurs? Because that’s what *fetus* sounds like. The Nazis used the same dehumanizing and euphemistic tactics as you employ.

          • Mr. G.

            The Nazis also engaged in forced gestation.

          • Mr. G.

            Fetus is a common term used to describe that stage of development so as to differentiate it from other stages. It’s a Latin word meaning “offspring” / not a pejorative. As I’m sure you’re aware, whether or not it’s a “human being” is the subject of considerable debate. Some claim that the existence of human DNA and organs in various stages of development justifies calling it a human being. Others take the view that being born / being able to live without an attachment to a unique host to supply oxygen and nutrients to the bloodstream is the first stage of a human being. Philosophically/ theologically, there’s a school of thought that says one is not fully alive until able to express the unique creation (in ways beyond DNA – e.g. identical twins have identical DNA but are two separate beings)

          • Mr. G.

            The umbilical cord is that part of the fetus by which it attaches itself to the mother’s uterus to affect nourishment and waste removal. It is NOT part of the woman’s body / person.

          • Kacee W.

            So, if you are so sure that the mother has rights, am I correct in assuming you believe all people have rights when it cmes to this discussion?

          • The part where you’re think one narrow definition trumps all the ways “foreign fails.” Maybe you can get over your fear of dictionaries long enough to process the fact that “foreign’s” medical definition is “occurring in an abnormal situation in the living body and often introduced from outside” or “not recognized by the immune system as part of the self.”

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foreign

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120607142244.htm

          • Mr. G.

            I suppose that’s why a woman’s immune system is suppressed during pregnancy by hormones put into her bloodstream via the fetus.

          • Almost as if Mom’s body is recognizing her child…….it never ceases to amaze that so much goes over your head.

            Only seeing what you want to see sounds like a rather unsatisfying way to live one’s life.

          • Mr. G.

            It’s ACTUALLY that the mom’s body’s immune system is being suppressed by hormones originating in the fetus. She’s been “drugged”.

          • The fetus CREATED BY her body.

            Idiot.

          • willowsprite

            Arguing that abortion is justified because a woman has a right to control her own body assumes there is only one body involved—that of the woman. We know that an unborn child is a human being, just like its mother, and thus has just as much a right to life as she. Where you live does not determine whether or not you have that right.

            By your logic, the poor and homeless are in the way and are a drain on society. Shall we kill them too? No, because they are human beings who have a right to life. My neighbour’s toddler is costing him a lot of money to raise and he also has an elderly relative living with him. Should he kill them too because they’re inconvenient? No, and no, for the same reasons. We are all human. We all have a right to live.

          • Mr. G.

            If you demand that a woman be forced to gestate an unwanted pregnancy, you’re placing her in a state of involuntary servitude – that’s contrary to the Constitution of the USA. The right to live commences when you’re born. Societal assistance for the poor, homeless, disabled, elderly, etc. does not require another person to surrender the integrity of their own person to do so. This isn’t about “convenience”. Abortion is a matter of a woman saying, “It’s my body and I don’t want that fetus inside me draining me.” If you can figure out a way for that fetus to live without forcing the mother to carry it to birth, let me know – I’ll likely support it.

          • willowsprite

            But it isn’t just her body. There is another body, which is dependant on hers for life. A unique human being. Whether she wants it or not, it’s still a person that doesn’t deserve to be torn limb from limb in excruciating pain until it dies just because she doesn’t want it there.

          • Mr. G.

            Too bad that it’s dependent on her for life – being as how she’s not obligated to surrender the integrity of her own person on its behalf.

          • willowsprite

            After the child is born, she is still dependant on her mother for her life. A newborn can’t survive on their own. A mother has to surrender a lot to provide for her. By your argument we may kill newborns too.

          • Mr. G.

            Once born, a child can be cared for by anyone – nothing is required of the mother after that. Since I differentiate between born and unborn, my argument does not support killing those who have been born. That said, I do support assisting suicide at the request of a person wishing to do so provided that it’s done in the most humane way possible under the circumstances.

          • willowsprite

            So? The newborn is still dependent on others for life. This is the argument you were making. If someone is unwanted, and needs others to survive, we may kill it. That’s what you said.

            Why do you differentiate between a born child and unborn? Is there a magical Mr G preference line in the birth canal? One minute before birth you can painfully dismember a child in the womb, but you can’t if the mother’s labour went to quickly and it passed that line?

          • Mr. G.

            You’re trying to create a straw man – that is not my assertion nor what I said Dependence on ANY other is very different from dependence on a ONE SPECIFIC other.

          • willowsprite

            Why does it matter if a human being is dependant on life on person A or person B? If person A doesn’t want it, they’re allowed to kill it. But if person B wants it, they are not allowed to kill it. Do you see the error in your argument?

          • Mr. G.

            My point is that it doesn’t matter if Person A or Person B is needed to care for someone – either can choose to do so, or both can decline and offer the opportunity to Person C. On the other hand, forcing Person A to care for someone is slavery.

          • willowsprite

            It is not slavery if the child is attached in such a way that to remove them would end their life.

            The child should not be murdered because she needs person A for a time until she can live in person B’s care.

          • Mr. G.

            It most certainly is slavery if the woman does not wish to remain attached to it. I’m not “glad” that, at least given the limits of our technology today, the fetus will die when removed from its host. I simply do not care enough to justify holding a woman in slavery to it.

          • willowsprite

            Wow, you’re really stuck on this slavery thing. Again, it doesn’t matter what the mother feels. If her feelings make her murder her own child, it is wrong. Her feelings do not allow her to judge whether a human being is worthy of life or not.

          • Mr. G.

            How many ways do I have to say this isn’t about “feelings”. It’s that a woman forced to gestate a fetus IS, IN FACT, a slave. I have no objection to the use of necessary force to escape that slavery even it involves killing someone.

          • willowsprite

            But it is about feelings. The mother is not, in fact, a slave. A slave works for someone with no pay.
            If she feels like a slave, that does not justify murder.

          • Eponymous1

            Finally, some honesty. You’re willing to kill one person to avoid 9 months’ inconvenience for another. Why is that? Who knows. but at least you’re finally edging toward honesty here.

            That is one outlook on our life here on earth.

            Here’s another:

            “It is easy to love the people far away. It is not always easy to love those close to us. It is easier to give a cup of rice to relieve hunger than to relieve the loneliness and pain of someone unloved in our own home. Bring love into your home for this is where our love for each other must start.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Mr. G.

            Is there some reason you think what Mother Teresa is supposed to guide us all?

          • Eponymous1

            “Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
            Life is a beauty, admire it.
            Life is bliss, taste it.
            Life is a dream, realize it.
            life is a challenge, meet it.
            life is a duty, complete it.
            life is a game, play it.
            life is costly, care for it.
            life is wealth, keep it.
            life is love, enjoy it.
            life is mystery, know it.
            life is a promise, fulfill it.
            Life is a sorrow, overcome it.
            Life is a song, sing it.
            Life is a struggle, accept it.
            Life is a tragedy, confront it.
            Life is an adventure, dare it.
            Life is luck, make it.
            Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
            Life is Life, fight for it!.”

          • willowsprite

            Based on your argument, if a conjoined twin feels like she’s a slave to her twin she can just murder her, even though she’s dependent on her to survive.

            And you still haven’t responded to the question of the difference between an unborn child a minute before birth and a newborn.

            Interesting, you are not glad the unborn will die if removed…so at least you have some sense of the immorality of abortion…

          • Mr. G.

            Not being glad is not the same as being even a little sad.

          • willowsprite

            Oh, that’s too bad.

            Anyway, I have to take up our argument another time. I have to go be a slave to my children and give them a snack. But, wait, I’m not a slave because I WANT to do it. So it’s based on my feelings.

            On the other hand, if I didn’t want to provide food, clothing and shelter to my children anymore, I could just kill them, right? Nope. Just because I FEEL like a slave, doesn’t mean I get to murder my own children.

          • Mr. G.

            Sorry, but you made the choice to carry your pregnancies to term and now you have children whether you like it or not. You chose servitude – that’s very different from being held in it involuntarily. If you truly didn’t want them, you should have aborted them when it wouldn’t have been murder.

          • Eponymous1

            “The way you help heal the world is you start with your own family.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Eponymous1

            “America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has shown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts ~ a child ~ as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters. And in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners. Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being’s entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign.”
            ~ Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta , “Notable and Quotable”, Wall Street Journal, 2/25/94 , p. A14 ~

          • Thomas

            May God have mercy on your soul Gary. You are truly disturbed to have responded the way you did to a genuine statement. You have no right to tell anyone what they “should” have done. You can’t even bring yourself to stating that she made the right choice for her. Giving pro-abort a black eye, aren’t you – after all it’s al labout choices, right.
            It’s Lent Gary. You claim of being a minister. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY N YOUR SOUL for such blasphemy.

          • Mr. G.

            She was complaining about having to care for her children and asking if that was sufficient justification for her to kill them. While I realize that she was being sarcastic, to tell the truth, I don’t know if she made the right choice for herself, and you don’t either. She made the choice she wanted to make, and I support that and I assume you do too. If it turns out that she ends up regretting her choice, she owns it. Blasphemy? Ridiculous!

          • Thomas

            And yet you ended your “counsel” to her with a “should have” in favor of abortion?
            Claiming to be a Christian is blasphemous if it involves speaking against Jesus’ teachings . You don’t seem to get that part of this Christian Covenant. It’s Lent, good time for you to acquaint self with the basics of Christianity.

          • Mr. G.

            I started that with, “”IF you truly didn’t want them…..” Which of Jesus’ alleged teachings are you claiming that forbade the choice of abortion?

          • Thomas

            You seem to think that just because the word “abortion” is not in the Bible it justifies your twisted view of Christianity. What did Jesus teach when he walked amongst people? Did Jesus infer ANYTHING about the sanctity of human life? The answer, of course, is an unequiovocal yes. I’ve told you before and will repeat it now – you are a false prophet Gary.

          • Mr. G.

            When do you and your supervisor, The Accuser, have another meeting scheduled, Tommie?

          • Thomas

            So now you resolve to insults Mr. Minister. It is clear to all except you that Jesus spoke for the sanctity of human life. You have no argument to dispute that AT ALL.

          • Mr. G.

            Where did Jesus address the length of any individual life?

          • Thomas

            I’ve already pointed out to you that even though Jesus does not address abortion, the sanctity of life is paramount in his presence. Although you lost that philosophical argument, now you repeat that same line? Do you process anything Mr. Minister? :)

            The length of individual life is implied in Jesus’ teachings on the SANCTITY OF HUMAN LIFE. I know you hate this phrase, but to help you understand see below (pay attention to what I emphasized in bold):

            ___________________________________________________________

            Jeremiah 1:5:

            “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

            Genesis 1:27

            So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

            Genesis 9:6 :
            “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.”

            Job 31:15:

            “Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?”

            Matthew 25:31-46:

            “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, …”

            Isaiah 49:5:

            “And now the Lord says, “strong>he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength.”

            Genesis 50:20 :

            As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

            Ephesians 2:10:

            For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

            Luke 12:6-7:
            “Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
            ________________________________________________________________
            Okay Mr. “Christian Minister” – in this time of Lent your task, as I pointed out in two other responses to you on this thread – is to think about the Sanctity of HJuman Life as presented by Jesus and relayed in the Christian Bible. Get to work :)

          • Mr. G.

            Your generic collection of Bible verses that can be interpreted in any number of ways amount to a massive collection of false equivalence. Those of us who have not idolized our own interpretations of scripture view dueling with proof texts as a fool’s errand. You’ll have to walk that trail without my company.

          • Eponymous1

            Nicely done, Thomas. Good citations.

          • Mr. G.

            By the way, not that Jesus said it, but Numbers 5 says that God commands that women be taken to the priest and given an abortion – it spells out the liturgy and ritual to be used.

          • Mr. G.

            It has long been my opinion that dueling via proof texts and arguing about interpretation is largely a fool’s errand. Since I have no hope of catching up to you on that trail nor the desire to do so, I hope you enjoy your stroll.

          • Confirmed: you don’t give a damn whether anything you say about Christianity is actually true.

          • Mr. G.

            Correction: I don’t give a damn whether anything I say about Christianity agrees with your understanding of it.

          • Yawn. The real problem for you is that you don’t give a damn about your fake bastardization of Christianity disagreeing with God’s understanding of it.

            Don’t say you weren’t warned.

          • were4life

            You shall know them by their fruits. A “minister” who advocates for killing is no minister of God. There is only one Being that would advocate for killing, and that is the Devil. You cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time. Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of My Father in Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father”.

          • Thomas

            You are a false prophet Gary. May God have mercy on your soul.

          • Mr. G.

            What, no response to God commanding abortion to be done in your precious book of authority?

          • Thomas

            Jesus nor God commanded such Mr False Prophet. Cite the full verse.

            Incidentally – you do understand that the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus Himself? If not, you need to return your “minister” certificate to whatever online course that issued it to you, if at all.

          • Mr. G.

            Numbers 5:12-31 – some translations are not done in easily understandable language. I’ve found the Common English Bible to be the most straight forward for most readers of that passage.

            If, as you say, the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus, why did you bother to cite so many quotations from it>

          • Thomas

            And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

            Prior to that the woman is not yet pregnant Mr Minister. Reread 5:12-31 in order to understand the word “defile.” It does not mean what you think it means in order to justify abortion.

            I cite verses from the Old Covenant to illustrate to you that It did not condone abortion, duh :)

          • Mr. G.

            What the passage says is that they don’t know whether she’s pregnant or not, so they administer an herbal concoction to attempt to induce a miscarriage (abortion). If she miscarries, she is judged guilty of adultery based on the evidence of an aborted pregnancy. Rather interesting to me, the central issue of the passage is the question of adultery. The prescribed abortion is merely a step taken in resolving the question of adultery – of no particular consequence outside the context of proving/disproving adultery. Also interesting to me is the 66% efficacy of herbal abortificiants. I wonder how many women who were “proven innocent” by this later gave birth to some other man’s child that the attempted abortion failed to expel, and also how many insanely jealous men ended up aborting their own children.

          • Thomas

            Christians are beyond any suppositions on that since we are bound by the New Covenant (spirit rather than written code).

          • Mr. G.

            Nice tap dance, Thomas. Fred Astaire’s got nothing on you.

          • Thomas

            And we already know that you are not a Christian, so what’s your point?

          • Mr. G.

            Both your gaydar and Christian recognition are out of focus.

          • Thomas

            And your ability to process suffers greatly as a result of not taking psych meds, sorry.

          • MamaBear

            The Common English Bible – a very loose paraphrase. The “translators” could not even bring themselves to use “Son of Man” in the Gospels. Instead they used “the human one.” “Persecute” is demoted to merely “harass.”

          • Mr. G.

            Oh, my – a translation that doesn’t suit your demands. What SHALL we do? How DARE they demote “persecute” to “harass” when EVERYONE knows how much Christians are “persecuted” in the USA

          • MamaBear

            Christians are not just in modern times USA. It was written when Christians were sent to lions, beheaded, crucified. In other parts of the world today Christians undergo torture and death.
            There will never be an absolutely perfect translation, but when dealing with Holy Scripture, a translator should seek to be as close to the original meaning as possible and I only gave a few example of problems with the Common English Bible (which is a very biased paraphrase).

          • Mr. G.

            Do you have a problem with the CEB because it’s the translation that so clearly spells out God commanding abortions be done in language that can’t be glossed over with a “pro-life” spin? Is that why you call it “biased”?

          • MamaBear

            I have a problem with CEB because when you look up the Hebrew and Greek, they do not agree in many places with CEB “translators.” Take translations like NAS, ESV, RSV, NIV, even ye olde KJV, and you find significant differences from CEB. Work through with an interlinear and Strong’s or other legitimate lexicons and you find significant meaning differences. When other translations agree with the original languages and CEB does not, perhaps it is because God Himself put that pro-life spin in the original.

          • Mr. G.

            What you refer to as “legitimate” lexicons are nothing more than those that comply with what’s popularly referred to as “orthodox”. The biggest problem with idolizing the written words is that it tends to reinforce existing biases and prejudices rather than open eyes to what you don’t know you don’t know. One might say that’s better than nothing. I’m not so sure. Sometimes it looks like the “cure” is worse than the disease.

          • MamaBear

            So, we need to throw 2000 years of Christianity out the door in favor of a minority of modern theologians who often no longer believe the Scriptures they and a handful of liberal denominations want to rewrite?
            No thank you.
            Tell me, have you ever considered becoming a Christian? Repenting, turning away from your sins and bitterness, accepting the forgiveness and new life offered through Christ’s atoning death on the cross? There is cleansing and peace available.
            I am far from what I should be still, but each day as I follow Jesus, He molds me yet closer to what He created me to be. I cannot imagine walking the path of cancer I am now on without the presence of my Lord Jesus and His Holy Spirit with me each step of the way.
            I sincerely hope you will consider a true follower of Jesus, not just one in name only.

          • Mr. G.

            I’ve been a Christian for about 10 years. I have turned away from my sins and bitterness and am enjoying forgiveness and a very different, new life. As I understand the notion of Jesus’ death as some sort of atonement / payment to God on our behave, I do not believe that to be true. Jesus did not die to change God’s mind about mankind. He died to change mankind’s mind about God. Jesus was not “Plan B”. He is Plan A. In a culture that had a few thousand years of belief that God’s favor can be bought and sold, the notion of a final atonement / ultimate sacrifice was probably a good sales tool albeit suffering from a lack of truth. Although Jesus supposedly ended the sacrificial system, many of the followers of the religion that claim to follow him have been relentless in their efforts to restore a version of it. People are told, “If you believe the right stuff, God will forgive you.” That has great appeal to the ego – it puts control of salvation back in its hands.

            My desire is to be a follower of the way of Jesus – in heart, mind, and soul. I don’t give a hoot about the name.

          • MamaBear

            If you think Jesus’ sacrifice is Plan B or buying God’s favor, you clearly do not understand it.
            Your often bitter words towards those who do not accept your anti-life (pro-abortion/pro-suicide) and anti-Bible rhetoric are quite convincing that you do not follow He who said, “I Am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

          • Mr. G.

            I think portraying Jesus’ death as an atonement casts it in the role of “Plan B” – which I clearly think it is neither an actual atonement nor anything but Plan A.

            My rhetoric is not “anti-Bible”. It’s anti-Bible idolization and every more anti any notion that sounds like “my interpretation of the Bible is identical with God’s thinking”. You and I see, “I Am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” very differently. I agree with the statement, but disagree with the way you see it.

          • Mr. G.

            We’ve thrown thousands of years of slavery out the door. Is Christianity a dead issue or shall we examine it for ways for it to grow?

          • Mars Attacks!

            Which of Jesus’ alleged teachings are you claiming that forbade the choice of cannibalism?

          • Mr. G.

            Are you suggesting that cannibalism is unforgivable?

          • Mars Attacks!

            Are you suggesting that question accomplishes anything other than to expose your moral bankruptcy?

          • Mr. G.

            Not if it’s over your head.

          • were4life

            Thou shalt not kill. Try that for starters. I didn’t even get a degree in theology & I know that.

          • Mr. G.

            I guess that’s why the Bible says God told the Israelites to exterminate whole peoples?

          • Mr. G.

            I guess that’s what the Bible says that, at least in some cases, God is said to command that abortions be done – specifies the method to be used and the liturgy and ritual as well.

          • Mr. G.

            When we’re talking about one minute before birth and a newborn, there’s virtually no difference – an no one is aborting within one minute of birth anyway. Kindly don’t try to take that inch / minute and extend it all the way back to the moment of conception.

          • willowsprite

            But we’re allowed to brutally murder a child at any time during pregnancy, up until the moment of birth. What’s the difference?

          • Mr. G.

            Read a book on fetal development. There’s quite a bit of difference between a zygote and a fetus within one minute of birth.

          • Says the guy who adamantly rejects the basics of fetal development.

          • Mr. G.

            When you can tell the difference between a chicken zygote and human one without heavy duty investigative tools, get back to me.

          • Good grief, what a moron.

          • Mr. G.

            Ad hominem / no facts = admission you can’t.

          • I’ve been spending weeks trying facts on you, but sadly treating you like an honest, well-meaning proved to be a waste of time. Your reply is so astonishingly stupid that no further elaboration is necessary for the non-lunatics in the audience.

          • MamaBear

            Hint! If it is inside the chicken egg, it’s a chicken zygote. Inside a woman’s uterus, then its human.

          • Mr. G.

            Good one, Mama! Now take the chicken zygote out of the egg and the human one out of a woman’s uterus and tell me how you tell them apart.

          • MamaBear

            I can’t even tell cancer cells apart from healthy cells, but unlike you good friend Plum, I do know cancer commonly kills people and pregnancy very rarely does.
            Half a million people per year, half of those women, die every single year from cancer. Over 1300 per day! And I know pregnancy is a temporary condition that is normally healthy. Out of 4 million pregnancies per year, only 650 women die, some unknown percent of that number are from abortion, as maternal death statistics were inclusive of anything pregnancy related.
            1300+ deaths per day vs, 650 per year!

          • Mr. G.

            Setting aside for a moment any false equivalency between the incidence of cancer and pregnancy, I’m still not willing to hold women in involuntary servitude for the benefit of a fetus even if 100% of them survive pregnancy without lasting health consequences.

          • MamaBear

            And I am telling you, your involuntary servitude nonsense is an insult to every mother in the history of the human race!

          • Mr. G.

            A mother chose her servitude voluntarily. I do not disparage service. I abhor involuntary servitude.

          • were4life

            Microscope. Duh. I am sure that one day scientists will be able to say, “These are the exact cells which become the beak”. Just because we don’t know all of the answers right now doesn’t mean that the answers will not one day be discovered!

          • Mr. G.

            Do you realize that differentiation about which cells become the beak will have to occur at some point after there’s more than a single cell?

          • willowsprite

            There’s quite a bit of difference between a toddler and an adult.

            Size and level of development have no bearing on whether or not your life has value.

          • Mr. G.

            Interestingly both a toddler and an adult have all of the same parts. A zygote is nothing more than a blueprint. Don’t tell me to look at a blueprint and say, “That’s a valuable building”.

          • willowsprite

            Nope. A zygote has all the DNA that it will still have as an adult. A blueprint is a drawing of a structure. It is not the structure itself. Your comparison doesn’t work.

          • Mr. G.

            Get a book on DNA when you pick up that one on human development. I’m afraid you’re so ignorant that intelligent conversation with you is impossible.

          • willowsprite

            That’s ok, you don’t need to argue with me. I thought we were having an intelligent conversation, though. No need to call names.
            No book on DNA and or human development will compare a zygote to a blueprint. It will say that it’s a human being, though, offspring of it’s parents.

          • Mr. G.

            Of course, it will {eye roll}

          • willowsprite

            Then why are you denying that it is human?
            Dirision doesn’t become you, Mr. G. Just because I have a good answer for everyone of your arguments there’s doesn’t mean you need to get snarky. ;)

          • Mr. G.

            Dear, you don’t have a good answer to my arguments – you have canned pro-birth talking points that aren’t accurate.

          • Says the guy who has put zero serious thought into anything he’s ever typed here and isn’t man enough to admit that he’s been caught being accurate dozens upon dozens of times.

          • Mr. G.

            Your Freudian slip is showing, Calvin.

          • The record speaks for itself. Only when you come to accept just how badly you’ve performed here can you start to correct your dishonesty, illogic, and arrogance.

          • Yawn. If the worst you can get me on is a single typo, I’ll take that over your laundry list of lies, evasions, double standards, false equivocations, ignorance, and general incompetence.

          • Mr. G.

            There’s a certain sweet irony in how the particular typo your spell checked didn’t catch became a rare moment where you accidentally spoke truth about me.

          • I kind of pity you that this is the only thing you have to help you pretend what you know in your heart: that you’re a complete fraud.

          • willowsprite

            Can you tell me which points are not accurate? Because you don’t seem to be interacting with the facts I present, just restating your original ideas (forced slaverly, unborn babies not being human…)

          • Mr. G.

            Let’s start with the fact that the presence of DNA does not mean something is alive. e.g. DNA can be found in a corpse or on a cigarette butt.

          • willowsprite

            Of course not. You were saying that there’s a difference between a zygote and a fetus. I was saying that there was not. Biologically they are identical beings, with the same DNA. Just different stages of development.

          • Mr. G.

            A skin cell from you arm has the same DNA as the rest of you. Is your skin cell a human being?

          • willowsprite

            No, your skin cell is not a human being.

            I will try to explain it better. Mr. G. the zygote contains 46 chromosomes which carry all the DNA that makes him a unique individual.

            Mr. G. the fetus is biologically identical to Mr. G. the zygote, as well as the Mr. G. I am speaking to right now. In every stage of development, he is still, and always, Mr. G., a living, growing, developing, human being.

          • Mr. G.

            A skin cell from Mr G’s face has the same 46 chromosomes that the adult Mr G has in every other cell in his body – even if it’s been sloughed off during shaving.

          • Mr. G.

            Yet my point is that, regardless of how you define human being, I see a lot of the forced-birth argument as a distraction from the reality that it puts a woman in a position of involuntary servitude if she’s forced to gestate a fetus to birth. As far as I’m concerned (and 70% of the American people), that’s not acceptable. A fetus is the result of a coincidental collision of two gametes. Over 75% of them do not survive to be born. Our God-given evolutionary design allowed us to survive with 50% of those actually born failing to live until reproductive maturity. Our technology has overridden our God-given design and created a new group of survival problems. Abortion remedies a small part of that.

          • willowsprite

            I would liked to know where you got 70% please.

            It is not a distraction. It’s simplifying the debate.
            We, as prolifers, contend that elective abortion unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. This simplifies the abortion controversy by focusing public attention on just one question: Is the unborn a member of the human family? If so, killing him or her to benefit others is a serious moral wrong. Conversely, if the unborn are not human, elective abortion requires no more justification than having a tooth pulled.

            But, you have already stated in an earlier comment that, even if you were convinced that it is a human being, you wouldn’t care. That is a terrible, horrific thing, knowing that you don’t care that a fellow human being could be so callously regarded and painfully torn apart and discarded. I can only hope that one day you will change your mind.

          • Mr. G.

            I don’t recall the particular polls but the most recent ones I know of set “Pro-choice” at 70% and “Pro-Life” at 66%. I realize that adds to to well over 100%. That’s because there are more people who identify themselves as “pro-life” for themselves but are “pro-choice” for those who want to make a choice than there are “pro-life purists”.

            It would be “simplifying the debate” if it didn’t come with over-the-top manipulative emotional appeals and name-calling, but yes, I see it as a very simple debate. If a woman doesn’t want to gestate a fetus, a choice has to be made between her and the fetus. I choose the woman. Attempting to avoid the issue and morality of involuntary servitude and insist that the entire debate is about the life of the fetus is dishonest.

            As far as changing my mind about this issue goes, I’ve held it for over 50 years, have served as a clinic escort for patients, contributed considerable amounts of money to Planned Parenthood, assisted in the performance of abortions, and even performed two. I’ve neither seen nor heard anything that convinces me that abortion is immoral or that holding women in involuntary servitude to a fetus is moral> I don’t like to say “never”, but until you can come up with something that hasn’t already been said a million times or more and failed to convince me, I doubt that my view will change about as close to never as you can get.

          • willowsprite

            The position I have defended is that no human being, regardless of size, level of development, or place of residence, should be excluded from the moral community of human persons. In other words, the pro-life view of humanity is inclusive, indeed wide open, to all, especially those that are small, vulnerable and defenseless.

            Remember: The absence of consensus does not mean the absence of truth. People once disagreed about slavery, racism and genocide, but that did not make them complex issues. Nor did it mean that there were no right answers.

            I will reiterate. The simple question is what is the unborn? The simple answer is the unborn are human beings. And murdering them is wrong.

            Simple.

            You will not acknowledge that. I can’t say anything more. Goodbye, Mr. G!

          • Mr. G.

            Breaking down the numbers from the 77-66 poll, 30% of people are purely pro-life, 34% can conceive of the possibility they’d choose abortion, and 36% are, although they would not choose abortion for themselves, support that choice being available to other women. I’ve seen that number as high as 75% favoring choice,

          • Basset_Hound

            If you read enough of this man’s comments you’ll soonlearn that derision is his stock and trade.

          • Mr. G.

            Which is the “gold standard” on this site for those who do not share one’s opinion.

          • Basset_Hound

            Poor widdle Mr. G.

            It breaks my heart and makes me weep inconsolably that this poor gentle soul who only wants to express a different perspective is treated so heinously by all those meeeeeaaannn ole “religious prigs”.

            SOB..SOB…..BOOO….HOOO….HOOO…sniff….

          • Mr. G.

            Your weak whistling as you walk past the graveyard cannot hide the fear you feel because I carry the antidote to your venom and walk the world sharing it without charge.

          • It’s cute how you’re still pretending not to know that you’re scum.

          • Mr. G.

            I think it’s cute how I walk thru here without getting any of your spew on my shoes.

          • Basset_Hound

            Thanks, Calvin….I appreciate you….

          • Basset_Hound

            You’ve got nothing! There isn’t one damn thing about your life that I envy or could possibly want to emulate. I’m sure I speak for quite a few of your other targets as well.

          • Mr. G.

            Of course, I’m the last person you’d want to emulate – that would only make your sand castle melt faster.

          • Mr. G.

            Be careful – if I spray a religious prig with the antidote, it’s like what happens to a witch doused with water in the Wizard of Oz.

          • Basset_Hound

            Too bad Toto already pulled back the curtain and revealed that the big scary apparition of the Wizard of Oz was nothing but a fraud with a machine.

          • Mr. G.

            What happens to witches was not an illusion created by the wizard. Neither is what happens to prigs.

          • Mr. G.

            It is, however, interesting that you mention pulling back the curtain. That’s *exactly* how to best neutralize the illusion of toxicity carried by prig spew.

          • willowsprite

            Even so, we must continue to speak the truth in love. As followers of Christ, we need to become more like Him, and not weary of doing good, though they mock us.

          • Mr. G.

            BTW: Saying that you’ve displayed considerable ignorance is not “name-calling”.

          • willowsprite

            When a zygote is formed, it contains chromosomes from the birth parents, a unique combination of DNA which makes it unrepeatable. It has everything it needs to develop right then and there. Why is that hard to understand? It’s not a blueprint, but an actual living being.

          • Says the guy who openly rejects what human development books say about the subject and insists that birth is a necessary condition of being a human being based on no evidence other than the false claim being convenient for his position.

          • were4life

            Read about embryology and you will see that the chicken zygote does in fact look quite a bit different than a human zygote – especially when you start to analyze cells under the microscope. I can safely say that no chicken zygote ever has become human or has ever developed fingers, and I know of no human zygote who has developed a beak and wings. Just because we cannot *see* something does not mean that it does not exist. Things which are microscopic appear the same to the naked eye, and yet in reality 2 microscopic organisms may be vastly different.

          • Mr. G.

            It would be rather foolish of one conjoined twin to kill the other – both would die. Very different than my argument about abortion.

          • willowsprite

            Not necessarily. If she survived, based on your argument she is justified in taking her twin’s life.

          • Eponymous1

            “I have found the paradox that if I love until it hurts, then there is no hurt, but only more love.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • willowsprite

            You are asserting that human life has lesser or more value depending on how the caregiver feels.

            You didn’t respond to my other statement. What’s the difference between an unborn child about to be born, or a newborn?

          • Eponymous1

            Give that child to me. I want it. I will care for it. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child and be loved by the child.”

            ― Mother Teresa

          • Eponymous1

            “And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even His life to love us. So, the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love, that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Mr. G.

            If a woman doesn’t want to gestate a fetus, there’s only one body that matters involved – hers.

          • That’s rich coming from the guy who was just complaining that pro-lifers supposedly only consider one of the parties involved. Then again, I suppose if you took out the double standards would wouldn’t have any standards at all…..

          • Mr. G.

            So are you saying that when the one considered is not the one you prefer to be considered, you have a problem with that? Join the club!

          • No, I’m pointing out your hypocrisy. We can add that to your growing list of severe character flaws.

          • Mr. G.

            If you claim I’m a hypocrite over this, you’re also admitting that you are one as well. If that’s a character flaw, it’s one you share with me ;-)

          • You really, really have no idea how logic works. I’m not a hypocrite because I’m not doing what you accused me of. You, however, have admitted to doing it.

          • Eponymous1

            “The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Probirth

            so basically it’s choosing selfishness over giving birth/life. Elective abortions are womens’ testimonies on how selfish they are and that no one else’s life is valued above their own

          • Mr. G.

            I don’t think that’s knowable – e.g. she may well be valuing the lives of her already born children above that of the fetus. or she might be at risk of losing the job that she needs to support an elderly parent if she’s pregnant. Bottom line: it’s still not your call to make and never will be if I have my way.

          • were4life

            It’s never the right decision for the baby – a cruel and inhumane death never is the right answer. It’s never the right answer for the mother either. It wounds her physically and emotionally for life.

          • Mr. G.

            “wounds her” – speak for yourself / don’t try to put words and wounds on other people you don’t even know.

          • Mr. G.

            There is nothing cruel or inhumane about an abortion performed by an ethical medical professional. I don’t see anything that I think allows you to decide whether it’s the right answer for a woman – least of all a woman that you don’t even know. When you claim it wounds her for life, you remind me of a high school teacher who told me that I would cry on graduation night and look back on high school as some of the best years of my life. He was wrong on both counts, and I’ve had 50 years to look back on it and still don’t see those years as anything I was glad to be done with.

          • were4life

            So you resort to calling a sweet, innocent, cuddly baby as an “object”? Amazing that the same mother would run in a burning building to save that “object”; that the same mother would, after the birth, carefully put that “object” in a carseat, carefully tested for safety! Amazing that the same mother would spend so much money on photos for her newborn “object”, dressing the “object” in cute clothes that look remarkably, not like lamp clothing or chocolate chip cookie clothing, but indeed, very much like human clothing. Maybe that’s because – hey, guess what? It’s a person! A tiny person, who LOOKS like the mother or the father! Imagine that!

          • Mr. G.

            I refuse to be distracted from the most basic part – that forcing a woman to gestate a fetus places her in a state of involuntary servitude. I find the to be immoral, illegal, and unconstitutional. I am willing to help her escape that whatever it takes.

          • Meg

            Mr. G, thank you for sticking up for a woman’s RIGHT to choose. I am completely pro-choice. You do not have the right to dictate what others should do with their own bodies, much less the right to judge. Roe vs. Wade was in the 1970s. Complain and cry murder all you want, abortion is legal and isn’t going anywhere, regardless of your opinion that you’re trying to force on everyone!

          • Mr. G.

            You’re welcome, Meg. I assume that the various “you” words in what you said were aimed at those who would deny a woman the right to choose and not at me.

          • were4life

            And the last time I checked, there were no double homicide charges for the death of a woman who has eaten a chocolate chip cookie who has been killed, but for a pregnant woman, who is killed, the perpetrator is charged for 2 deaths. Two deaths TWO – and a death means that a person – a PERSON was living!

          • were4life

            And I have never seen millions being spent on keeping a chocolate chip cookie alive in the NICU. Never! Really, honestly, come up with some better arguments! You make me laugh!

          • Mr. G.

            That wasn’t an argument – it was an opinion. The description of any foreign object/body inside the body of a woman who does not want it there needs to go.

          • were4life

            Every woman in the womb is different too, and deserves life.

          • Probirth

            You sound like someone who isn’t able to get pregnant

          • were4life

            There is never a valid excuse to take the life of an innocent child. Never. And yes, we can dictate that because guess what? Without life, there is no liberty. Every person deserves to live. EVERY person, no matter the location, no matter how small, no matter how innocent. By the way, do you believe in the death penalty for sweet, cute babies only?

          • Theresa

            I had a friend that was brutally raped at the age of 10/11 and became pregnant from it. The harassment she suffered, being called a whore and a slut and so many other disgusting names left emotional and mental scars along with the painful memory of her rape. She wasn’t allowed to even consider abortion and in the end she miscarried in the end. She was admitted into a psych ward at 16 because she tried to kill herself several times because the whole mess left her completely destroyed. How can you sit there and tell me she should have gone through that? That somehow a 10/11 year old should be forced to live that?

          • momof3

            Did I sit there and say once that she should be forced to go through that? For some reason did you think I didn’t go through harassment or be called names? Did I ever say it isn’t horrible and tragic? It is sick and disgusting that any woman or young girl should ever have to suffer rape and bullying! Naturally and clearly she went on to suffer from what happened long after the baby was gone! I still suffer the pain from the abuse, name calling, bullying and rape itself too, but my baby has never once hurt me! He isn’t rape, he isn’t the rapist, he isn’t the one who called me names or judged me. He is a baby.There is in fact a difference between them. I refuse to place other people’s shitty choices and actions on a perfectly innocent baby and label him as some THING forced on me. And as I said…. in case you didn’t read it. I will not tell someone what they have to do but according to me it was not a valid excuse.

          • were4life

            The child is innocent and should not be killed – ever. The man who hurt her should be punished, and the people who harassed her were very wrong. We are often mocked and scorned while doing something wonderful and noble, which this girl did. However, that mockery is no excuse for giving in to evil or for justifying it. This girl could have ended up with worse problems from an abortion – such as being killed by it or being rendered sterile, or she could have developed breast cancer from the abortion & died from the breast cancer.

          • Judy

            It all depends on the woman’s mental state! Some women rise above rape and others end up dying by Suicide! It is beautiful that you can see your child this way! Think of all the men and women who abuse or kill their children because they hate their ex! Justifying the death of any child before or after birth is wrong! Abortion can be so awful for some women that they suffer more then if they had let the baby live! It’s often times a no win!

          • Carin Kahlo

            Have you seen the movie October Baby, it is really good. Also I know someone that had an abortion and it really hurt her big time. If I remember correctly it was life and death for her and the baby. By having the abortion it saved her life. Sadly she was never able to have kids after that but she has some adorable four legged kids that I enjoy seeing pictures of. It was the hardest decision she ever made. She very much wanted the baby. I had people wanting me to get an abortion when I was 20 and he will be seventeen in October. Times were hard but I’m glad I had him.

          • MamaBear

            Situations where it is the life or death of the mother are rare, but those of us who are pro-life support saving the mother in those cases. It really is night and day different from elective abortions for convenience. May God bless and comfort you friend. I’m glad she has at last found some comfort with her 4-legged kids. And bless you for keeping and raising your son.

          • Sarah

            I am sorry, but I am not sure I could agree. Would it be a painfully difficult decision? ABSOLUTLY! and no judgement to Carin’s friend. But if baby had been born and you had the heart wrenching option of your life or your Childs would your answer still be the same? Doctors are not always accurate in diagnosis and God is greater then any complication. I am just saying as a pro-lifer I can not agree with the statement above.

          • MamaBear

            I agree doctors are not always right and God is indeed greater than complications. And once viability is reached, although there is no guarantee the baby will live if brought early, there is no need for abortion. I’ve known two women whose pregnancies were deliberately ended early as their lives were at risk. Both cases, each baby was delivered live and rushed to NICU for a chance at life.
            The reason most pro-lifers support the life of the mother exception is that when you lose the mother (pre-viability) you automatically lose the child, too.
            Elective abortions for convenience are always wrong. If the life of the mother is genuinely at risk, I don’t think anyone can make that decision except the mother and her doctor. Please remember, life of the mother exception would still be pretty rare.

          • were4life

            Physicians for Life declares that argument to be a fallacy, so don’t buy it! We can always save them both. Health risks, yes, but death? Very, very, very rare, especially in a developed nation. I would challenge you to name a single case in which abortion was needed to save a mother’s life, and this was verified by a physician who was pro-life. I challenge you!

          • MamaBear

            I’ve known three where that kind of decision was considered.
            2 were severe preeclampsia. In both those cases, they barely managed to wait to the edge of viability to take the babies. One baby lived, but spent months in NICU.
            The 3rd was a young mom with cancer (who ironically was pro-choice). She convinced her oncologist to put her on a modified chemo and radiation waited until after birth. In her case, she achieved remission several months after the baby was born. But her oncologist warned her that most women who try that with her cancer do not have as good an outcome.
            We had an article a while back about a young mom who took that same risk and is dying from her cancer. One documented case of a pregnant woman who postponed treatment was Coach Landry’s daughter. She died of her cancer while her daughter was a toddler.
            I know these are rare. What I am saying is these rare instances do happen. I personally think the health exemption is terribly overused and the exemption should be life, not just health.

          • were4life

            I admit there are risks – yes – risks and even death during pregnancy and childbirth – which are rare – but the answer is NEVER to chop up the child in the womb. The answer is ALWAYS early delivery, getting the baby to the point of viability. Delivery of the child is ALWAYS a humane and beautiful option, even though it risks her life. She can do cancer treatment while pregnant even if it compromises the life of her child. This is considered moral, and is not considered an abortion. This is considered a secondary effect. It is never right and never justified to dismember or directly kill a child. Save them both!

          • Barbuckle

            They are not always wrong either, so who would you suggest us going to raise and love the baby and the 2 or 3 other small children the mother may already have when you choose the baby over the mother?

          • were4life

            You are talking about very, very rare cases, and usually the father or the family raise the baby. I have never ever heard of a case of a child being placed for adoption because the mother died. Again, red herring argument. If the baby was available for adoption, there are tons and tons of couples (over 40 per child who are home-study ready) waiting for every child. Those are just the home-study ready ones. The actual numbers of couples who want to adopt a baby? I think there are thousands for each baby available for adoption – thousands, but because of technicalities such as income or not having enough bedrooms in the house – they don’t qualify!

          • Barbuckle

            So your argument is that it is okay for others to decide that the mother isn’t as important as the child and leave her other without their beloved mother, but with a new baby brother or sister. I don’t think I would ever agree that should be anyone’s choice, except the mother. There is no other situation where people would agree that it is okay for you to be required by law to die to save someone else’s life. I am the mother of a baby who is adopted because his birth mother already had 4 kids she could barely take care of. Even though he wound up my very loved son, I don’t agree that if she were at serious risk of dying those other 4 children should have lost their mother to save him. They do not have family to care for them and people are not standing in line to adopt 4 kids, ages 5 to 9. Even if they were, someone new wouldn’t replace the mother those for kids. I realize those cases are rare, but how rare they are would notmatiter to those kids when their lives are torn apart. I have no problem wit love for the preborn child, but it seems to me that people want to put that above love for the already born people.

          • Barbuckle

            And I agree with you about people in line waiting to adopt “babies”, healthy ones. But not children, and not disabled babies. Check out the statistics on how many children and disabled babies are adoption ready, but no one takes them because they are too old or are disabled. When ALL of those children have loving homes, then your argument about people wanting babies will be valid.

          • were4life

            Yes, there are waiting lists for disabled children too. The ones you are talking about are probably on an international waiting list. The domestic ones are adopted right away.

          • Barbuckle

            Disabled newborns maybe, there are literally THOUSANDS of disabled older ones and children here in the US who are not adopted. That is an indisputable fact. People should be concerned about them also.

          • Barbuckle

            Domestic ones are only adopted if newborn and disabled. Older children who are disabled are waiting to be adopted all over this country. Yes, they are available, not held up by red tape, and nobody wants them. I don’t agree with abortion except in very rare situations. But until all the people who want to tell a woman she must have a baby she doesn’t choose to have go out and adopt ALL of the children already here needing a home, I don’t even want to discuss it any more.

          • were4life

            Amen, Sarah! No exceptions!

          • were4life

            We need to save them both! Most women will tell you that they *had* to have an abortion to save their lives, but what that really means is that the pregnancy was high-risk and that the condition of being pregnant put their health at risk. Yes, risk, but very few actually end up dying. The baby always, always always has an equal right to life. We should NEVER condemn the child to a cruel, inhumane death simply because the mother’s life is at risk. NEVER! Save them BOTH! If your child was in a burning building, would you stand outside watching it burn down, or would you risk your life by running in to try to save your child? What if by running in, you both died? You would STILL run in to that building. Why devalue the life of a child due to his location? He is of equal value – EQUAL and not LESS!

          • Barbuckle

            And I have severe kidney damage that I KNEW I would have because I didn’t abort mine, but that was my choice, and shouldn’t be someone else’s.

          • No excuses

            My education and my career were not interrupted. A child should not be used as an excuse. I had my 1st daughter in college. I walked and received my diploma 38 weeks pregnant with my 2nd daughter. I was starting my career not even 3 mo into the job pregnant with my 1st boy… I’m still here 3 kids education and a career. I know so many women who had babies asked never did they stop and did it on their own it’s excuses imo. No Child should die for those reasons time and money… sigh… I get joy in spending my time and money in my children. I think I’ll use my hard work to take my 4, 2 and newborn and my hardworking husband on a vacation and count my blessings that I was taught to respect the life of a human being.

          • MamaBear

            Known plenty of women who combined motherhood and career, including myself. I’ve known several who completed masters degrees while both working and raising young children.

        • dlaff

          “By forcing a child upon a woman you’re taking away…” The minute a woman chooses to open her legs, she needs to realize the strong possibility that she may become pregnant. A child should not be thought of or treated as if it were a disease.

        • brittany

          how is that the childs fault? maybe that woman should have used a little bit of that money she holds higher than a human life and get on birth control or even fixed if that’s how she feels. nothing has to end because of a baby. If you can’t handle the risk of getting pregnant, can’t be bothered to protect against it then keep your legs closed. simple as that.

          • Heather C

            Just to clarify, it’s pretty much impossible to have a doctor sterilize you if you have no children, or are “too young.” My husband and i have one child and are in our mid twenties and had a hard time finding a doctor that would sterilize.

          • jenmoz93

            Contraceptives aren’t 100% effective. And generally doctors won’t sterilize women unless they have serious health issues. And no, women shouldn’t be forced to keep their legs shut. If they want to have sex, they should go about it safely. But they shouldn’t be forced to abstain because people like you care more about an unborn child.

          • justagirl

            No they aren’t 100% effective. She should know that. She should also know that engaging in sex knowing contraception isn’t 100% could lead to a child and by having sex, she is taking that risk. If she doesn’t want children she should abstain. Its not the poor child’s fault she had sex. Sex leads to babies. Actions have concequences. If she gets pregnant, adoption is an option. There are plenty of people, like me, who cant have kids and would love that child forever.

        • Angie

          If a woman has a plan in life and wants no interruptions or anything to get in her way, she should be smart enough to know where babies come from & how to prevent it. The best & simplest choice is birth control or abstenance. Then there won’t be the difficult choices a woman has to make. And abortion wasn’t invented because of rape victims. It was invented for reckless, stupid, selfish men & women. It’s getting to the point where abortion is like cleaning up spilled milk. No big deal. And the sickest part is some women have more than one. As far as the woman who’s education is going to be interrupted and could possibly find the cure for a disease, what about that aborted baby? How do you know it wouldn’t have a cure or be some kind of scientists, genius, or prodigy? And one last question. What about the father? What if he wanted that baby? What if he was willing to raise & care for that baby on his own without any help of any kind from her. It’s his baby too

        • Kirsten

          So time, money, careers and educations are more important than a human life, in your opinion. Wow. How sad your life must be if you live believing that.
          Once a woman decideds to have sex, she must accept the responsibility and be prepared that a child may come of this act. If sex is forced upon her in the form of rape, that obviously is a horrific and tragic event. A child, precious and innocent, might be created from this heinous act, but that life can turn mourning and shame into something beautiful: A LIFE together. Mother and child.

        • were4life

          With adoption, the woman can still have those plans and dreams, and carry them to fruition. Have you asked the child if she enjoys her life being snuffed out in a cruel manner?

        • Andrea

          I don’t typically get involved in these discussions…… If the women who consider abortion had practiced safe sex and some form of birth control this would be less likely a question or debate to begin with. We all know how we get pregnant.

          • jenmoz93

            Yes, because contraception is 100% effective…

        • Katelynn Landry

          Brooke Nicholas : Clearly you are not a mother.

          As a girl raised with morals and respect of myself but also of others… I NEVER could understand abortion. Even for the controversial ‘rape victim’ argument. And, let me be clear, a rape victim is the ONLY one who can say she did not ‘choose’ to have a baby. I applaud any woman who realizes she can’t raise a child due to her circumstances whether financial, lifestyle, what have you and gives the child who really had no choice in her mother’s actions that put her in the situation of becoming a mother. I give a standing ovation to the women who change their lifestyle when faced with difficult situations so that she can be the mother that she chose to be.

          As a woman who has witnessed friends and family alike suffer through pain and selfblame for the inability to even conceive, let alone carry a child to full term….

          As a woman who has worked in CPS and witnessed many adoptions… for the betterment of children whether by termination of rights or relinquishment….

          As a women who works in a field of infertility care….

          As a woman who has experienced the joy pregnancy and the heart-wrenching of news that I was to ‘be prepared for the worst’. As the same woman who holds her almost 2 year old son and thanks God that he was born perfectly healthy, full of energy and sweet affection. As the same woman who ‘chose to become a mother’ again, I cuddle my sweet 3.5 month old daughter and thanks God for another opportunity to be a mother.

          Brooke Nicholas, You are an idiot. You have no idea what joy you are missing. Furthermore, This post never stated it was illegalizing abortion….. just that it was giving people a conscience who previously were ok with it.

        • Patti

          Pregnancy is 100% preventable b in all cases, but yet we act like we are victims when it happens to us. The true victims are the lives growing inside of us who don’t have a choice to live or die.

        • KB

          Was she forced to have sex? It’s all an excuse to not take responsibility for choices. Children are a gift from God. Be careful what you do with these precious gifts. Someday you will be accountable for your choices.

        • Ann

          If you’re not in a position to have a child or simply don’t want one, perhaps you should be sure to take steps not to get pregnant in the first place. Instead of arguing for the right to have an abortion, how about arguing for abstinence! It’s okay not to have sex!

          • jenmoz93

            Then you should tell men not to have sex too. Women should have sexual rights too, not just men. But women face all the consequences.

        • Marjean Softkitty Stevens

          Then dear, if unwanted children is what you want to avoid don’t spread your legs. Look problem solved. Did that hurt your feelings? Im sorry but what you said destroyed mine. I lost my son at 16 weeks. Today i get to see a therapist because of my suicide attempt this pat weekend.

          • jenmoz93

            I’m sorry you lost your child, but you can’t force women to abstain because you are against equality. If men can sleep around, women can too. They just have to go about it safely.

          • momcubed

            “If men can sleep around, women can too.” This is a childish argument. Men can pee standing up too. Do you feel as though you are left out? You want to emulate the lifestyle choices of a manwhore? Grow up and don’t be a slave to your primal urges. If you can’t, be responsible for the consequences.

        • Andrea

          Unless you are speaking of rape, no one is “forced to have a child”. The consenting couple decided to have sex and a baby is the natural product of sex. The only way to 100% protect against having a baby is to not have sex. After you have sex, your choice has been made. You keep saying “force”, but there is no being forced to have a baby if there is no sex. I am adopted. My birth mother was raped, so even in a true case of being forced to have a baby, she was able to do the right thing. And I’m glad she did!

        • AnnMarie B

          Taking away a women’s “time and money” is more important then a life that God created? With all due respect, I highly disagree and I think that child would disagree as well. You say that maybe that women was on the verge of discovering a cure for a disease (which she can still do as a lot of mother’s have careers) but have you ever thought with all the millions of babies killed every year by abortions, that some of them might have found the cure for diseases? We don’t give women the right to kill their children when they are outside if the womb so they shouldn’t have the right to do it when they still in the womb and supposed to be protecting them.

        • 3blessings

          I am curretly 20weeks pregnant with 2 kids at home and a Single mother at that. I am enrolled full time in college, and I co-own my dads business. Never have my kids or pregnancies interrupted work or school for me. My children and my pregnancies have only motivated me to continue and go further in my education and career. All babies concieved should be born. There are so many other options then abortion to make sure a child is loved and taking care of.

        • mamabear

          That choice is still killing a human being. Maybe the women should think before she entertains herself with sex. one of the purposes of sex is to reproduce. I am sure people get abortions because of time, money, travel, school or career but would you kill someone because of those things. I mean really would you kill someone today if you couldn’t do those things, no you wouldn’t because you would land yourself in jail.But in reality you are killing a human being when you abort our sick society has made it ok but morally it is WRONG!

        • patmo

          Guess if she’s all that intelligent and self sufficient to find cures for diseases and traveling for her job, she could find a way to have protected sex.

        • paige

          Then they should keep their legs closed.

        • LostEldestSiblingToAbortion

          Sorry I will be inconvenienced for 9 months (or longer) or miss a vacation, I am going to have to kill you instead of making arrangements for your care.

        • PRO LIFE

          If education and career are so important, I would assume the ‘educated’ individual is aware of birth control?!?! The ONLY time an individual should be given an ‘option’ is when she is raped! Outside of that, abortion should be illegal. If you can’t consider the unborn child or consider the opportunities for others to adopt your baby, then keep your darn legs CLOSED!!! Those are the only choices for the truly negligent who can’t keep their hormones in check – pill.., adoption…, or FORT KNOX!!!!

        • amanda

          your an idiot…..pregnancies interrupt womans education an career opportunties….simple solution dont have children then

        • Mandea Brown

          How is it forcing a child on a woman if a woman is willingly participating in acts that give life to said child? Actions have consequences and if you want to play the game, you have to pay the price. And even in cases of rape it’s not right or fair to end the life of an innocent because of the sins of the father. There are other paths than murdering an innocent child.

        • Vanessa

          If your not wanting to keep your baby don’t get pregnant in the first place. If you have to, by a vibrator. No body should choose the faith of a living child, and yes from day one of conception.

        • Basset_Hound

          Really? So you think laws against child abuse, neglect and abandonment constitute “forcing a child upon a woman” or “taking away her time and money”?

          Suppose a woman discovers that her baby has numerous allergies and medical issues? Does she get to kill him for interfering with her career?

        • Taylor

          are you serious?

        • Heather

          What about the baby?? What if one of the millions of babies that have been aborted throughout the years was the person who would have found the cure for cancer or other terminal illnesses? Imagine the amount of intelligence that has simply been killed because someone didn’t want them.
          Without bringing religion into this, let’s look at legalities of abortion. It is legal for a woman to have an abortion without the consent of the father, but if the mother decides to keep baby that the father doesn’t want she can still come to him for child support. That is a serious flaw in our legal system. My brother wanted his child, but he had ZERO say in the matter and his girlfriend terminated. That isn’t equal rights.

        • Michele

          The answer to the issues that you list- having to provide for children, missing out on school, etc-is not abortion. The answer is personal responsibility. There are measures to take so that you don’t end ip with an “unwanted” pregnancy. And if women aren’t mature enough to take those measures, either grow up real fast and accept thw consequences of your choices or don’t have sex in the first place. No one forces a child on you- we all know how babies are made.

        • glo

          If the woman is unwilling or uncapable to care for a child, then she should not engage in the activities that make a child. Actions have consequences; you need to be aware of and willing to accept the possible outcomes of your actions. It’s called responsibility. Murder is never an appropriate action, and it saddens me that it is so casually accepted as a possibilty for unwanted pregnancies.

        • Pro-Life

          So Don’t Get Pregnant Point Blank

        • were4life

          *Forcing a child on a mother* – this is what you do when you denigrate the loving option of adoption and take away the mother’s choice to place a child, giving the biological father the ability to disrupt an adoption plan.

        • were4life

          Also, by the time she gives birth, many mothers change their mind about adoption & find that they can’t do it after all. Thus, 2/3 of mothers who felt ambivalent about the baby or even down-right rejected the child change their feelings AFTER the birth of the baby and find that they do, indeed LOVE their child. Most birthmothers LOVE their child enough to place their child with a loving family. Adoption is a beautiful thing. You are wrong to put it down.

        • Ash

          Maybe that is something that the woman should consider prior to the pregnancy…. you make it sound as if it is a completely random act that a woman has no control over. I personally am expecting my 4th child and honestly the timing isn’t great. But my husband and I made the decision to do “the deed” and it is CERTAINLY not my child’s fault that we will be “scrapping by”…. She didn’t ask to be here but she will have every chance I can give her in life.

        • April

          But she wasn’t forced if she had sex willingly, if you are big enough to have sex then you should be big enough to take care of a baby that you get pregnant with as a result.

      • CS

        Women certainly can die if they are pregnant.

        • Starstorm

          Yes, there is that rare occasion that they die during pregnancy and childbirth.

          • were4life

            But much more commonly from abortion. Sepsis and uterine perforation are much more common from abortion, with uterine perforation only being a complication w/ a d & c after a miscarriage.

        • Jen

          Women can certainly die while not pregnant. Women can certainly die during an abortion. Women can certainly die over many things. Women can die stepping out of there house while it’s icy out and slip and fall and hit their head. But the point was, pregnancy itself for the majority of women does not mean death.

          • CS

            My comment was a reply to someone else’s post, who obviously doesn’t know too much about women’s health. This is a huge part of the problem, everyone hasn’t educated themselves past the bible. I never said all women are in danger either, but the lack of knowledge on the subject is staggering.

          • were4life

            And you haven’t educated yourself beyond Planned Barrenhood’s propaganda pamphlets! Try reading real stories of deaths and injuries of women killed from “safe and legal” abortions. Just try it! It will sicken you how women are treated and will sicken you how these abortionists keep babies’ feet and bodies as trophies as serial killers would.

          • Tara Walters

            I died on the table. They had already removed my epidural and I felt myself slipping away. I told them. Only after convulsions did they take action. 3 hours later after rushing my mother from the room did they let her know I was ok but needed 3 Liters of blood. And that they couldn’t find the bleeding as I was already sewn back up. They ripped me apart…I felt it before slipping into darkness…

        • were4life

          Karmamonger Moyer – Kermit Gosnell’s victim; Jennifer Morbelli, Tanya Reeves – look up their deaths – deaths because of abortions & there are lots more – deaths from gross negligence caused by abortionists – by “safe, legal abortions”. How about serious hospitalizations caused by the effects of abortions? There are lots of those, such as sepsis & uterine perforation, etc. Giving birth in a sterile, clean facility with proper care is a thousand times safer, and you have a live baby and healthy mama, who typically is able to conceive again. Abortion clinics are filthy places where they don’t properly sterilize instruments & spread disease & don’t even care if they risk the health or life of the mother. Plus, children are born alive & are often just stuffed in bags or suffocated. Read about it in the trial of Kermit Gosnell.

          • CS

            I applaud you for having a much better argument for pro birth then “the bible says”, because this has fact around it. But there is risk in hospital settings for births too. There is risk for every medical procedure. It’s not one of our choices of what a pregnant woman decides to do, because it has no impact on us.

          • were4life

            Kermit Gosnell. Defend him, please.

          • Jody

            More women die in childbirth and during pregnancy than they do during or after a legal abortion. Most abortions are actually done at home, by taking a pill. “Abortion Clinics” generally don’t exist anymore. Most women get “in clinic” abortions at the local hospital. So its happening in the same “unsanitary and filthy” places that women are giving childbirth. Educate yourself before you rant. Reading a couple articles (which you probably didn’t even check the sources of) does not mean you know what you’re talking about. What you are saying about abortion clinics may have been true in 1950… but not today.

          • were4life

            Kermit Gosnell. End of story.

          • were4life

            Kermit Gosnell 2012. Leroy Carhart 2013 – actually this man who killed Jennifer Morbelli is on one of Lila’s undercover videos discussing how children become like meat in a crockpot. Yes, isn’t that the kind of “doctor” you’d like to have operating on you?

        • MamaBear

          Every year in this country, about 4 million women are pregnant, yet there are only about 650 maternal deaths. Maternal deaths, BTW, includes deaths from abortions.

          Years ago, I had a dear friend who was one of those maternal deaths. She was told NOT to get pregnant because she would have to go off her medicine, but got so tired of waiting for a child to adopt, that she deliberately got pregnant. When she was 8 months along, her husband came home from work and found her dead, not from pregnancy, but from the condition that was the reason she was not supposed to get pregnant. Had she not been home alone, both she and the baby would have lived with medical intervention. Deaths like my friend’s are included in that 650, even though pregnancy is not really the cause of death.

          Did you know that the safest country in the world to give birth in is Ireland, which has no elective abortions?

        • Megan S

          Yes women can die if they are pregnant. Cancer is a perfect example however. How many women choose abortion because they know they are going to die. Barely any. Life is always better than death and giving a child up for adoption lets them live. No you are not certain where they will go but they will be alive and adoption guidelines are so strict there is a better chance they will have Better lives. Value life. Value that a fetus cannot voice to you they want their chance at life. You only get one. And how fair is it that your mother chose life for you but you cant choose life for an unborn baby who can’t fight back. your mom decided you were worth life. they wont come back in a few years when youre ready, they will be gone forever.

          • Megan S

            I will also say that my mother had an auto immune disease that didn’t have symptoms until she became pregnant with me. The medication she needed to be on could have killed me but not being on it could have killed her and me. My mom chose to risk it to give me life. She was horribly sick she lost a ton of weight her skin turned yellow and all of her pregnancy pictures were stored away because she didn’t feel beautiful. She had me and regained her health. Two years later she got pregnant with my sister, same thing happened only this time. Her immune system caused so much damage that she needed an emergency transplant that lasted 12 years until her body couldnt do it. All she had to do was abort me and it would have saved her thousands of dollars, one transplant, weekly blood draws, constant medication changes, countless visits to the ER. but most importantly her LIFE. because she chose life for my sister and me.

        • Tory1

          Your comment is so ridiculous! How often is an abortion performed because the mother’s life is in danger? None. It’s like saying nobody should ever go outside because an airplane might crash on your head.

          • Elysela

            None? That is false! Ectopic pregnancies for ONE. There can be many reasons a womans life is in danger while being pregnant.

          • were4life

            An ectopic is not an abortion. Nice try. Play again!

          • Elysela

            i was saying you would need an abortion in the case of an ectopic pregnancy to save the life of the mother. if you bothered to read the comment i was replying to. nice try, play again!

          • were4life

            Again, the removal of a tube during an ectopic (there, does that clarify it for you?) is *not* an abortion. Again, I say, nice try. Play again!

          • Elysela

            definition of abortion “the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy” since an ectopic PREGNANCY is TERMINATED it is an abortion.

      • Kacee W.

        I can Support this statement. I was just reunited with my birth mom this last week. After years of wondering why she would give me away, I learned that I was a rape baby. She knew she couldn’t give me the life I deserved so she GAVE me the life I deserved. Now we are taking off right where we left off at, and I couldn’t be happier.

      • Natalie

        ummm….yea some women r not able to carry a baby to term, for one medical reason or another, because if they do so IT WILL KILL THEM!! I cannot believe that in 2015 u’ve NEVER heard of this?? It’s actually slightly common, especially in other countries. This story is so very sad, I’ve actually been thru it myself, 19 1/2 wks. I have & always will feel abortion is & should ALWAYS remain each individuals choice,while @ the same time on a personal level i am 98% against having one myself, i 2 believe if its going 2 kill me 2 carry out this babies life or if i was raped i might/probly will decide 2 abort, BUT I also feel the gestational age they stop allowing u to abort is way too high in all places (as they vary by state) & 19wks is definitely one of them!! If theres a heart beating & that baby can move its extremities, then that means it has a functioning & a heart beating & pumping blood all thru that body that makes them ALIVE rite, i mean medically if say sum1’s in a coma & theres no brain activity so they say mite as well pull the plug rite, so theryre dead no brain function means no life so aborting @ the stage b4 brain activity begins cannot b considered murdrer anything after in my eyes i believe is what god would consider taking anthers life….

        • were4life

          In every single case, early induction is what is used to save a mother’s life when her life is at risk – and this is perfectly moral – even if it puts the baby’s life at risk. So, you still do not have a “life at risk” reason for abortion. There is never any reason to deliberately tear a child from limb to limb. Never. In fact, an abortion INCREASES the mother’s risk for death, and in a life/death situation, the physician does not have time to perform an abortion. Again. Nice try. Play again.

          • Tara Walters

            Really? Very untrue and every situation is different. So save child kill mom leave her pervious children to be raised without a mother. Good one…

          • were4life

            Go to Physicians for Life and look it up yourself. Who do you trust more – someone who is looking out for both of your lives or someone who wants to make money off of the death of your child?

          • were4life

            Would you leave your born child to die alone in a burning building, or would you risk your life and maybe die in the process of trying to save that child?

        • were4life

          Also, *slightly common* – WRONG! Try very, very rare for a woman to die in childbirth – especially in a developed country. In a 3rd world country, she would be MORE likely to die of an abortion than she would of childbirth. Childbirth is ALWAYS safer – it is a natural process & the body is designed for it. Also, there is a huge risk of breast cancer for women who have aborted.

    • Saundra Stump-Buck

      Thank God for adoption

    • VLS

      You say it’s no one else’s place to decide whether or not a woman becomes a mother. No, it’s her place..and once she’s decided ( by not being prepared), it’s up to her to see to it that baby has a life. Whether that means adoption or her keeping it. Birth control is far too easy and far too effective for any excuse! If you’re not using birth control and you don’t want to get pregnant, DON”T HAVE SEX! It’s that simple. And don’t give me the old stand-by excuse of rape…less than 1% are because of rape. The majority of abortions are repeat patients.

    • B

      A person is a person no matter how small. Life is precious. What if your mom had made the decision to abort you?..Let that sink in. It’s easy to be “pro life” when your not the one being killed. Having an abortion shouldn’t even be an option because it’s not even your life your giving up on..It’s someone else’s. It really is mind boggling how people who were born and given life are for abortions. Shame on you.

      • B

        “Pro choice”**

        • CS

          It’s easy to be “pro life” when a pregnancy isn’t affecting you. My Mom became pregnant with me at a young age, and thought about abortion. She decided not to. Am I upset over that? No, because that would be her choice, I wouldn’t have felt anything, and how does that affect anyone on here if I was?

          • momcubed

            How do you know you wouldn’t feel anything?

    • Anonymous

      Then don’t get pregnant. That baby sure didn’t choose to start a life and then have it taken from them. This is the worst argument I’ve ever heard for pro choice. I’ve had friends who have had abortions, and I would never judge them, but you made it sound selfish and cruel. Shame on you.

      • jenmoz93

        You do realize that the baby probably doesn’t feel anything if the abortion happens in the first trimester, right?

        • TFG

          Wrong, wrong wrong.

    • catherlyn

      Yeah but there are so many women who can’t carry a child. I don’t think abortion is the way to go when you can place that child into adoption. So that it can be loved by a family who can’t have children. The only way I could see myself having a abortion is if I had a tubal pregnancy. I also don’t see how these women go through with abortions. I think we all know there is not a day that goes by that they don’t think of that child. But, yes it is the mothers choice. I just don’t believe in taking the life of one of God’s beautiful creations.

      • were4life

        Tubal pregnancies are *not* abortions. A tubal pregnancy is the removal of the tube. The child dies as a secondary action to the removal of the tube. Often the baby is already deceased. This is not immoral. An abortion is the willful destruction of a living child in the uterus who would have otherwise lived. In an abortion, a child is torn to pieces while living. In a late-term abortion, the child is typically killed with diclegis prior to the dismemberment. Other abortions include early induction with the direct intent of abandonment or suffocation by the doctor – as in the child *could* survive with medical attention – is living, breathing, crying, moving, but the doctor chooses to not give the child a ventilator, a feeding tube, etcetera.

        • were4life

          I should clarify that Physcians for Life does *not* recommend methotrexate for a tubal pregnancy because a.) the child is still alive and a drug is being given to kill the child and b.) the tube can still rupture because the methotrexate may not kill the child and c.) there is the potential for an intrauterine pregnancy – a baby may also be implanted in the uterus but may not have been detected, and that child will most certainly be killed by the methotrexate. Therefore, although surgical removal of the tube is more invasive and destroys one tube, this is the moral option.

    • Kathy

      The woman made the choice when she became sexually active. One of the natural consequences of sex is the possibility of conception. After a baby is conceived she is choosing her version of “her life” over the life of her unborn baby. So why not abstain from sex when you are not in a time in your life when a baby would be welcomed into your life instead of being disposed of? Unborn babies are alive like you and me, but less visible, helpless, innocent, and perfect. You never know how they can touch your heart unless you give them a fighting chance.

    • KB

      You do have a choice. Your choice is having sex. You must take responsibility for your choice. To end a life is choosing to murder. That is your choice. The choice is not wether to become a mother or not. You made that choice with sex. Do you have the right to murder? Your thinking is all wrong. Choose Life. Take responsibility.

      • Mr. G.

        Abortion is another way to take responsibility for the negative consequences of having sex. You might not approve of that way, but then it’s not up to you. Consent to have sex is consent to have sex It is NOT consent to carry a pregnancy to birth if one should occur.

        • momcubed

          Yes it is! That is what happens when you have sex. You make babies. You talk about innocent humans beings like they are a sexual transmitted disease. You are not taking responsibilty for the negative consequences of having sex. It is the opposite of taking responsibility. Disposing of an inconvienent human is not being responsible. It is being selfish and irresponsible.

          • Mr. G.

            I don’t think you’re in any position to make that “selfish and irresponsible” judgement of others. Taking the steps necessary to remove herself from involuntary servitude is quite responsible regardless of the consequences to a fetus. If you can come up without an alternative that will permit a woman to immediately end her involuntary servitude, please let use know.

          • momcubed

            The last I checked, consensual sex does not lead to involuntary servitude. Are talking about women who are being forced to be surrogates after they have been impregnated by force? No, you are being hyperbolic by equating a voluntary act with an involuntary one. Many men want to be able to bang any chick that will agree to go to bed with them and not have an consequences. You seem to not understand what it means to judge. Judging means to condemn someone to eternal damnation. I am simply stating that it is irresponsible and selfish.

          • Mr. G.

            As I understand the mantra of the forced-birth movement, their intention is to create a situation where consensual sex can lead to involuntary servitude. A woman can give consent to having sex. She can give consent to carrying a pregnancy if one should happen. If she does not consent but others are allowed to force her to gestate against her will, she is, in fact, being held in involuntary servitude.

            I acknowledge that some number of men would like to be able to have sex with any woman who will without having any consequences. Personally, I think the gentlemanly thing to do is at least offer to pay half of the cost of the abortion. In any case, outlawing abortion will not stop some number of men from acting like jerks – it’s nothing more than another attempt to distract from holding women in what amounts to slavery if they wish to abort but are denied that option.

          • momcubed

            Just admit that you are okay with killing babies. Because, that is what it is. I am not okay with killing babies.

          • Mr. G.

            As long as you’re willing to understand that I do not consider a fetus to be a “baby” (and don’t care whether you agree or not), I can readily admit that I’m OK with killing fetuses – even if you want to call them “babies” or “brussels sprouts” or “chocolate chip cookies”.

          • momcubed

            What part of it is not a baby? It is a tiny human. You are okay with killing tiny humans.

          • Mr. G.

            chocolate chip cookies, babies, tiny humans – I don’t care what you call them – as far as I’m concerned, it’s still not sufficient to justify holding a woman in slavery to gestating it.

          • momcubed

            It is not slavery. You cheapen the struggle of every person who has endured under the yoke of bondage. It is disgraceful and immoral to equate a natural human physiological function to the billions of people who have endured enslavement over countless millinnia. It is insulting the way you act as though women are idiots who cannot make choices to prevent pregnancy from happening. You take away the responsiblity of men to take care of contraception and/or provide for the progeny they have created in their consensual act. You also demean civilized human beings by implying they cannot reason and are in fact slaves to their baser urges.
            With your arguments I could easily justify taxpayers (involuntary servants) condoning euthanasia of those who are on welfare. They are in fact forced to provide for their care for even longer periods of time than a pregnancy.

          • Mr. G.

            I beg your pardon? I’m not the one suggesting woman are incapable of making their own reproductive choices and insisting on taking that choice away from them and turning them into bond breed slaves if they don’t want to gestate a fetus. Prevent pregnancy? All contraceptive methods have a failure rate. If a woman’s primary method fails, I have no objection to her backing that up with a secondary method such as abortion. The end result is the same: not pregnant. Why would you object to that?

            I’m not “taking away responsibility of men to take care of contraception or provide for the progeny they’ve created”. I’m making sure that, if a man turns out to be a jerk in the respect, the woman isn’t stuck dealing with with the problem on her own.

            “Cheapen the struggle”? How much involuntary servitude is too much? I would say “any amount” is too much.

            The biggest difference between tax payers funding care for the disabled and forcing a woman to gestate a pregnancy is that the taxpayers right to the integrity of their own person is not being violated by being taxed to support the general welfare of our society.

          • momcubed

            Their is more than one form of birth control and they can be used simultaneously by both men and women at the same time. Slavery is not born out of choice. People choose to have sex. You are cheapening the struggle of those who are truly forced into involuntary servitude. They never had a choice. The option to get them out of slavery does not include the death to an innocent tiny human. We will never agree. A taxpayer does lose the integrity of their own person because they are forced to labor and not receive the fruits of said labor. They break down their bodies through toil in order to provide for someone they don’t even know. It is different for someone who chooses to give to charity, because it is their choice. You don’t like the analogy because it shows the flaws in your own logic.

          • Mr. G.

            Actually not, because that taxpayer is still free to not labor and not have taxes due to pay if they don’t want to pay them.

            Let’s take one of your examples of people you considers “truly” forced into involuntary servitude. If such a person was attempting to escape and it turns out that the only way they can make their escape is to kill someone who desires that they continue to be slaves, is that slave obliged to remain in slavery rather than do the killing necessary to escape?

          • momcubed

            Yes, and women are free not to have sex.

          • PJ4

            Yeah, I second what Calvin said and if you really outsmart him, then he’ll start insulting you and reporting your every move to his gang of hateful pro aborts.
            I don’t want scare you or anything, but he’s pretty creepy.

          • Eponymous1

            “I feel the greatest destroyer of peace today is ‘Abortion’, because it is a war against the child… A direct killing of the innocent child, ‘Murder’ by the mother herself… And if we can accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love… And we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts…”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Eponymous1

            “The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts–a child–as a competitor, an intrusion and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the dependent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters. And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.”
            ― Mother Teresa

          • Mr. G.

            As if Mother Teresa’s opinion is somehow definitive of something other than Mother Teresa’s opinion?

          • Mr. G.

            I’ve frankly lost count of the number of times I’ve had sex – it’s probably safe to say that it’s a number north of 2,000. So far as I know, that resulted in 2 pregnancies – one that was aborted before I even knew she was pregnant, and the birth of my son to a woman who had an abortion the day after I first met her. We discussed the option of abortion, but she said she didn’t want to have another abortion at that time, and I agreed. She did, however, have another abortion after she and I parted ways several years later.

          • Eponymous1

            “Love begins by taking care of the closest ones – the ones at home.”
            ― Mother Teresa

        • Confirmed: there’s no pro-abortion slogan too mindless for you to recite.

          To “take responsibility” is to acknowledge whether your actions have wronged someone and, if so, to set things right. In this case, the wronged party is the son or daughter you have put into a state of extreme need while having no intention of seeing that those needs are met, and subsequently exposed to the danger of being killed. Taking responsibility for conceiving him or her would be carrying to term, giving birth, then either raising your child or placing him or her up for adoption. The whole point of abortion is to AVOID that responsibility. To take credit for what you’re avoiding in the most harmful way possible is downright Orwellian.

          And the old “consent to sex isn’t consent to pregnancy” canard? If I blow through every red light I see, I’m not consenting to a twelve-car pileup. It’s not what I intend to happen at all; I’m just trying to get to work on time. But that doesn’t mean my actions didn’t cause wreckage and bloodshed. I’m still responsible. Foot-stomping about how “I never consented to these accidents” won’t do me a lick of good with the police, the courts, or pretty much anyone else.

          Seriously, man. Have some self-respect.

          • Basset_Hound

            “If I blow through every red light I see, I’m not consenting to a twelve-car pileup. It’s not what I intend to happen at all; I’m just trying to get to work on time. But that doesn’t mean my actions didn’t cause wreckage and bloodshed. I’m still responsible.”

            Not only that, Calvin, but if someone is injured because you plowed through that stop light, you face serious consequences if you just keep going like nothing happened. You’ll get charged for leaving the scene of an accident and failing to stop and render aid. There isn’t a judge this side of hell that would buy the excuse of “well, I consented to drive, but I didn’t consent to helping someone who’s hurt or killed as a result of my driving”.

          • Mr. G.

            There’s more than one way to view responsibility in case of pregnancy. You cite one. There are others I see as equally responsible and moral.

            I’m not sure about you, but I do not object to the use of contraception. Nor do I object that, if a woman’s primary contraceptive method fails, she backs it up with a secondary method such as abortion to achieve the originally intended outcome: not pregnant. I am not willing to penalize a woman with involuntary servitude if her primary contraceptive method fails – especially when she has an equally responsible alternative of abortion. You’re attempting to narrowly define what her responsibility is / who she has a responsibility to. Other perspectives differ.

          • If the only argument you have is repeating the same banal non-sequitur of “views differ,” then you may want to reevaluate the shallowness of your position. Of course lots of people see things differently. Some people think the planet’s only 6,000 years old. Some people claim the Holocaust never happened. It doesn’t make their position credible. If you tried such an empty response in any formal debate setting or debating class, you’d be laughed out of the room.

        • Jed

          So you believe an orgasm to be worth a murder.

          • Mr. G.

            No. For one thing, abortion isn’t murder.

          • Jed

            Call it what you will, it changes nothing. You lack the honesty, integrity, and humanity to speak the truth.

          • Mr. G.

            The truth is that abortion is legal in every state in the USA. Murder is illegal in every state in the USA and none includes abortion in its definition of murder.

          • Jed

            While you are busing yourself with definitions, perhaps you could start with “responsibility.”

          • Mr. G.

            It is my integrity and sense of humanity that forbids me from agreeing to hold women in involuntary servitude to a fetus.

          • Jed

            You have just succeeded in defining yourself as less than fully human.

          • Mr. G.

            I will give your opinion all the weight it deserves ;-)

          • Jed

            I posted this a few days ago, but in your case it is worth posting again:

            All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can — and must — be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a “perfect society” on any foundation other than “Women and children first!” is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly — and no doubt will keep on trying.

            ~ Robert Heinlein

          • Mr. G.

            Given that homo sapiens has sufficient excess reproductive capacity to survive when 50% of us didn’t live to reach reproductive capability and, thanks to our technology, we now far exceed that survival rate, any notion that abortion at current levels is somehow remotely describable as genocide is patently ridiculous.

          • Jed

            So you do in fact perceive murder to be somehow beneficial to species survival?
            How telling.

          • Mr. G.

            Even at many times current murder rates, any alleged detriment to specie survival is still statistically trivial. e.g. we’d have to murder about 45% of people just to get down to the level where 50% of us didn’t survive to reach reproductive capability.

          • Jed

            What a ridiculous equivalency you attempt to draw!
            Face the truth. You’re nothing but a two-bit punk who feeds on death!

          • Mr. G.

            Ad hominem / no evidence = admission of having no argument.

          • Jed

            No argument is required with a blood sucker like you. By your own admission, you feed on death. That settles the “argument” once and for all.

          • Mr. G.

            Another swing and a miss.

    • Julie Berry Clark

      What would make you think that a child given up for adoption would suffer “constant abuse”? Most adopted children are cherished by parents who are unable to conceive. Many wait for years longing for a child of their own.

    • Skye

      I agree with you 100%.
      Everyone keeps saying how a job and education shouldn’t come before an unborn child, but, if a woman does have a child and can’t keep her job or finish school those people are the same ones who are bitching about them being on welfare.
      And you say that rape shouldn’t be an excuse, even for an 11 yo, but, if an 11 year old went out and got pregnant those people would be the same ones to say horrible things about the girl and say about how she isn’t ready to be a mother.
      And what happens when the birth control fails? It happened to me while using an IUD and in September of 2014 I had a miscarriage. I still don’t feel that abortion is that bad. I myself couldn’t have one, but I would not encourage that we take that option away from other women either.
      And no, the article isn’t trying to make abortion illegal, it’s just trying to make people feel bad for having one when they feel that it is the best choice for everyone.
      No one will grow up not knowing their blood family or wonder why they weren’t wanted, no one will grow up in poverty, no one will grow up being abused, now one will suffer for the rest of their lives.

      • Basset_Hound

        “Everyone keeps saying how a job and education shouldn’t come before an unborn child, but, if a woman does have a child and can’t keep her job or finish school those people are the same ones who are bitching about them being on welfare.”

        Would they, really or would they be encouraging the woman, if she keeps the baby to make choices that would get her off welfare as soon as possible…such as completing her education, developing a work ethic, or having relationships with more stable, reliable men.

        “And you say that rape shouldn’t be an excuse, even for an 11 yo, but, if an 11 year old went out and got pregnant those people would be the same ones to say horrible things about the girl and say about how she isn’t ready to be a mother.”

        No, they would not. They would try to put the perpetrator in jail. Next they would realize that a girl who is acting out sexually at age 11 needs serious counseling, not condemnation.

      • Jen

        Actually Skye you are wrong. Most people who are pro-life are also very generous when it comes to supporting the poor. However, we believe in supporting the poor through community food banks, helping to house the homeless and helping them learn the skills to find and hold onto homes they can afford. Have you heard of Habitat for Humanity? Government welfare does nothing to stem the problem. Cash and food stamps are handed out but no real help is offered. Pro-life people believe in getting personally involved, preparing food for the poor and serving it in soup kitchens where you get to know the people as real human beings and learn their life story.

    • Cherie

      just to let you know, if you have an abortion it doesn’t take away the fact your a mother. Your just a mother to a dead baby!

    • vanessa

      Yes they do but the also have choice of birth control morning after pill and adoption

    • LostEldestSiblingToAbortion

      You may be abused, unloved, become disabled, or suffer in some manner in the future as well. Should someone have the right to kill you on that basis? It is no one else’s place to decide whether or not they live. Humans at every stage of development deserve a choice, it’s their lives too.

    • Griffonn

      So my family has over a dozen adopted people. Are you suggesting that they should all rightfully be dead?

    • Lynn

      There’s always a choice. If a mother can’t care for a child there are millions of families waiting to do so. Adoption blesses everyone. I was a child who grew up without that support and love. But I’m glad I had a chance at life. I’ve been able to do much good in the world because of my experiences.

    • Caitlyn

      Then people who don’t want to have children should use protection or don’t have sex. Because ABORTION SHOUTCAST NOT BE USED AS BIRTHCONTROL for lazy women n. And there is plenty of people who are unable to have children want who adopt.

    • smb

      Of course a women has a choice…..dont have sex or do have sex. Those are your choices (yes of course there are extenuating circumstances/situations of being forced but that’s not way I’m talking about) there is NO guarantee of any form of birth control working 100%. So anyone having sex has the chance of being pregnant. THAT decision is the ONLY decision you have to make. You are in control of your decisions but not your consequences. If you are mature enough to make the choice to have consensual sex then you are old enough to prepare yourself to crest a life…..and deal with the consequences of ending a life that is not yours.

    • Elle

      The choice they make should be protecting themselves, both control condoms even the morning after. Some women are careless and maybe if there were some stricter restrictions on abortion that wouldn’t be the case. I do believe there are some extreme circumstances like rape and 13yr olds…. Other than that be more responsible!

    • Sam Neff

      I also want to point out how detrimental adoption facilities can be on child development. It is no secret that foster children have a higher occurrence of mental illness, and although intentions may be well placed, sometimes trust isn’t.

    • Tory1

      You put yourself in the place of God, the giver of life. You say it’s no one else’s place to tell a woman if she should become a mother, yet you think it’s o.k. for the mother to decide whether another human being should live or die. There are thousands of couples who would love to adopt a baby. That excuse is just a way for a murderer to ease her conscience. There is never an excuse for murder. How can you agree to the brutal torture of murdering a little one like this? Only a monster could condone the ripping off of the limbs and sucking out of the brains and soaking the little body in a saline solution, burning his tender skin like fire. Even a convicted murderer is treated better than this. You need to watch an abortion; if it doesn’t change your mind, you should be afraid for your very soul, because it will mean you’ve sold it to the devil.

    • Vicki

      If they didn’t want a child, then there are ways to prevent it. There are numerous forms of birth control on the market, or the best preventative is to NOT have sex. Killing a child because you are irresponsible is no excuse. There are way too many women out there using abortion as a form of birth control. If you can’t be responsible enough to not get pregnant and you don’t want any children, then maybe you should be sterilized. You say women deserve a choice, well that child doesn’t have one. An unborn child should have the same rights as everyone else. Just because they aren’t born yet doesn’t mean they aren’t alive. Abortion=Murder…PERIOD.

    • Pro-Life

      I Think if The Mother Didn’t Wanna Be A Mother Then Preventative Measures Should’ve Been Taken!!

    • Nicole

      I think that if a younger girl was raped and therefore the mother’s life would be in danger due to the affects of pregnancy, that it should be allowed.

    • Sarah

      So the child never gets that choice. A woman doesn’t have to have an abortion to chose to not be a mother. Just because a baby is put up for adoption doesn’t automatically mean he or she is going to be abused. I have three of my own but would adopt in a heartbeat if it meant a baby is spared. Sure it’s the womans’ lives, but what about the baby? I’m sure you’re glad that your mom decided to be a mom instead of you being an inconvenience right?

    • Napro

      God doesn’t make mistakes. We all are here for a reason, for a mission.

      Your mother never knew you were going to have this mindset but brought you to this world. Wold you have preferred otherwise? So why you are pushing women to think in ‘choices’. You know these ‘choices’ are killing of the innocents? Speak life!

    • Deanna

      If abortion became illegal, everyone would still have a choice. If a woman does not want, or is not ready to have a baby – don’t have sex! If you have sex, use precautions and prepare yourself for the fact that you mat become pregnant. It makes me sick to think that someone could kill their own child, and that it is even an option! People need to realize that this is what happens when you have sex! God created sex to be intimate and passionate, yes.. But also to be between a man and his wife. People need to deal with the consequences of their actions, abortion is their “exit” strategy. I know too many couples who cannot have their own children and would be so incredibly grateful to receive that child that would otherwise be aborted. Put yourself in the shoes of those who long to have a baby and cannot.

    • PacificNorthWestGirl

      Brooke, almost 24 years ago my mother willingly gave up her parental rights and put me up for adoption. A year before she got pregnant with me she was a happily married mother of 3 boys but in one night her entire life changed. Her infant son died of SIDS. She couldn’t handle the loss and went into a deep depression. Her marriage fell apart and she lost custody of her two remaining boys. A few months after that she got pregnant with me. She knew she wasn’t capable of raising a baby on her own. She considered abortion but decided to look into adoption before making the decision. She went to a pregnancy clinic and they put her in contact with an adoption agency. After talking with them she decided against abortion and decided to find a family who could care for me in the way she wished she could. She chose a couple who had been trying to conceive for 14 years. She loved me so much she chose to find me a family who could provide me with everything I needed and who could love me unconditionally. I have always known I was adopted and I have always know how much my mother loved me. I love her for choosing a harder road so I could live.

      And before someone says something about not knowing what it’s like to experience a unplanned pregnancy for myself.. Let me clarify that I experienced a unplanned pregnancy at 19 years of age while I was becoming a flight attendant. I know the fear and desperation that goes through a young girl’s mind when she reads that plus sign for the first time. I know how desperately she hopes that the 6th, 7th, and 8th test will be negative. I know the shame that comes over you when you realize everyone you grew up with is going to find out and that your parents will see it as a disgrace. I know all of that. I’ve lived through a unplanned pregnancy, hyperemesis gravidarum (I was so sick I was hospitalized twice and lost 15lbs in a month), the shame of having to tell all of your family, having to go on welfare for my entire pregnancy, and you know what? It didn’t kill me. It changed my life in so many ways but it made me who I am today.

      You are right. Women do deserve a choice. We have all taken sex ed. We know what can happen if we have sex. We also know we have the choice to use contraceptives. Many of those who have unplanned pregnancies choose not to use those contraceptives. That IS their choice. Your comment is so ignorant. I am a staunch feminist. I am a woman. From the moment I was conceived I was a woman. So many women’s voices have been silenced through abortion.

  • CS

    This is one woman who was in a stable relationship that wanted this baby, and millions like you, this is a very touching and beautiful tribute. Having said that, this doesn’t change a a thing about the importance of abortion Adoption is a 100% an option. Getting rid of abortion is not. Pregnancy is worse for you then abortion, so saying it’s easier to give up a child for adoption is also wrong. Saying a woman should keep her legs closed if she didn’t want kids is also wrong. Why are you blaming them? Many women do everything in their power do what they can to not get pregnant, and it happens. This country alone pays BILLIONS for unplanned pregnancies a year. The woman’s testimonial in the article who is talking about keeping her child now having read this article even though she’s “struggling to get by”? Did everyone read that thinking how great that is when she could be bringing a child up in poverty? If anyone truly cared about lives, they’d do more about the ones who have lived. I applaud any of you who are foster parents or do a lot of volunteering in your community, because that is how you truly support life. If you’re idea of making the world a better place is to shame women who have to make difficult choices when it comes to health and their future, that is not truly living with God in your heart. Support sex ed, support easier ways to get birth control, research more about bringing planned parenthood and rape crisis centers to more areas that need them. Be realistic about prevention and education. Education makes for a better world, not shaming.

    • willowsprite

      This is not a story about blaming or shaming, it’s about showing people that babies are human beings, and they have just as much a right to life as their mothers do.

      • jdndkfkn

        Unfortunately, the fetus does not have a heartbeat until the 8th/9th week of the gestation period. According to the King James Bible, Genesis 2:7 or 17 (if I’m not mistaken) reads the body does not become alive until He breathes a life force into the fetus. Let’s also keep in mind the Bible was written during a time when people thought the Earth revolved around the sun. Moving on…

        Life is not a miracle. Life is all around us- it occurs because it is an infinite cycle. An abortion does not prevent life, it only circulates the energy into another form of being (if the fetus reaches past the ninth week of gestation). As we all know from sixth grade science class, no form of energy can be destroyed, only transferred.

        • were4life

          A baby’s heart starts beating 42 days from conception – 42! This is basic science!!!! Look it up in any embryology textbook! God’s law is “Thou shalt not kill”. A child is most certainly alive from the moment of conception! How ridiculous to use the Bible to wrongly and incorrectly justify such a horrific act – the painful death of a child. The Bible *never* advocates the taking of an innocent life – EVER! God knew us before He formed us in the womb, and He has plans for us even before we are conceived. This is in Jeremiah. You are correct that abortion does not *prevent* life. It *kills* life – a person’s life – a sweet, cuddly baby – a little boy or little girl who looks like his or her mama or daddy!

          • CS

            In other versions of the bible, kid Jesus killed other kids for fun. Also, God didn’t write the bible, it’s not a book of science,and women were treated terribly in it.

          • MamaBear

            Please stop lying about what you obviously have not read.

          • CS

            I have read other versions of the bible, of which there are many.”O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? Behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit.” And straightway that lad withered up wholly.

            — Infancy Gospel of Thomas 3:2-3. Jesus was provoked and said unto him, “Thou shalt not finish thy course.” And immediately he fell down and died.

            — Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1

          • MamaBear

            The Gospel of Thomas and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas are NOT part of the Bible! Most scholars put them 2nd century, although modern neo-gnostics try to claim they precede the canonical Gospels. They were not in any of the early lists of inspired books that were being compiled by church leaders as early as 2nd century, but a reference to one or both together is in Eusebius’ list of heretical books.

            To try to claim gnostic books as part of the Christian Bible, is like trying to claim the “Book of Mormon” and Mary Eddy Baker’s “Science and Health” are part of the Bible.

        • mommyofangels

          Thats not true I had an ultrasound at 6 wks and 2 days and my baby very much had a heartbeat we saw it beating

        • willowsprite

          That text refers to God creating the first man, Adam. He was a fully formed adult who God formed out of the dust, then into him breathed life. This is a different way of creating than a baby growing in the womb. And…the earth does revolve around the sun.

          Abortion does destroy life. It kills a human being. We have established that scientifically, from the earliest stages of development, the unborn are distinct, living, and whole human beings. You are unrepeatable!

        • MamaBear

          The heart beat starts the FIFTH week of gestation and there is blood circulation.

          Genesis 2 is about creation of the first man, not babies.

          What does the Bible say about unborn babies?
          Psalm 139
          13 For you formed my inward parts;
          you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
          14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
          Wonderful are your works;
          my soul knows it very well.
          15 My frame was not hidden from you,
          when I was being made in secret,
          intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
          16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
          in your book were written, every one of them,
          the days that were formed for me,
          when as yet there was none of them.
          BTW, no where is the Bible does it actually say the sun revolves around the earth. Several places actually refer to the earth as a circle (as close as you can get to sphere in Hebrew).

          Just as when you die, there will never be another person exactly like you, when the unborn die, they are not repeated again either.
          It seems you need to get beyond 6th grade in both science and Biblical knowledge.

      • CS

        These comments are full of judgement and shame. And proves truly, that every women is different, and education is needed.

        • willowsprite

          I am sorry that some people judge and shame rather than educate people on facts and show compassion. It’s unfortunate some people speak that way! We must always show compassion and grace to women who are facing a difficult/unwanted pregnancy. Saying “just keep your legs closed” doesn’t help a woman facing an unplanned pregnancy. True prolifers respect all life, including moms.

          Yes, pregnancy and birth is hard, and we should support them. Thankfully there are crisis pregnancy centres around to help. Taking an innocent human life should not be an option. Whoever told you that abortion is “better” and pregnancy “worse” is lying to you!

          • CS

            It’s not a lie, your body goes through terrific but terrifying things to support life that could affect your health in the long run. Abortion wouldn prevent that housing, it’s fact. Preg centers are getting better, which should be supported a lot more for pro lifers. A lot of pro choicers like myself don’t love abortion, we encourage all women to make the choices they need to WITHOUT scrutiny. I’m sure some people would not appreciate these pics, and that’s just as wrong as saying “keep your legs closed”. No one knows everyone unless they walked in their shoes to understand the choices they make.

          • willowsprite

            Yes, your body does do a lot of work to grow a new life, that is for sure. But pregnancy is not worse than abortion. There are millions of moms that will tell you so.

            Some people would not appreciate these pics – how do you mean? They show the humanity of the unborn. They are human beings, just small – not what abortionists call “just lumps of tissue” to ease the minds of those considering abortion.

            You talk about choice…but does the baby get to choose? No. They would choose, if they could, life. They would not choose to be brutally and painfully torn apart, limb from limb, until they die. No one would choose that. So why do some people get to choose to murder someone who is weaker than they, just because they can’t defend themselves or speak for themselves?

      • jenmoz93

        Do you know what a baby looks like in the first trimester? Its hard to call it a baby at that point in time.

        • willowsprite

          It doesn’t matter what it looks like. It’s still a human being. You are still you, from the first few moments of your life onwards. We change and grow all the time. Looking different doesn’t excude you from the human race.

    • were4life

      Because it is more compassionate to torture a child to death in the womb – a child who feels great pain, mind you, than it is to place the child with a loving family, according to you. And chastity & purity is just not something that women are ever capable of, according to the Great Deceiver, and neither is abstinence during fertile times for married couples….. so, let’s torture children to death, cut off their heads, arms, and legs – and sacrifice them on the altar of choice.

      • CS

        They don’t feel anything that early on? I didn’t say adoption wasn’t an option at all either if you look for my other comments. Part of the problem with you pro birthers is that you don’t educate yourselves with real science. You’re religious rant tells me that.

    • momcubed

      Abortion is worse on a woman’s body than pregnancy. Read the research.

  • Susan Ladenburger

    Forty-four years ago my husband and I were in your position…our son, Scot Allan lived for 2 hours. We did not get to see him, but my mother, who was a registered nurse, did see him. He, too, was perfect. Our Scot had a purpose, he cemented our relationship and continues to live in our hearts and will until we die. And then we will see him.

  • Starstorm

    Proof that the unborn aren’t a grouping of cells. Haha! It’s terrible that he couldn’t wait at least a few more weeks so he could have a fighting chance at life. :(

    • Anonymous

      Humans are quite literally just a grouping of cells..

      • Starstorm

        Not how the people that call unborn a group of cells…They consider them just a glob. And a justification that it is okay to kill the living thing. If we are to call humans “just a grouping of cells” does that mean I can walk outside my house and kill some random dude and it would be okay? Obviously, he would just be a “group of cells” so it is okay.

        • Chris

          That is ridiculous. Abortion takes place before the ovum begins to differentiate, or slightly after. Cells have no capability of thought, or feeling. No intelligence at all. What you are doing is preventing the possible chance there may be life.

          Letting a fetus grow, having the knowledge it faces an almost certain still-birth, is more murder than anything else. This is such a joke of an argument- people will say anything to make themselves feel they are right.

          Yes, at one stage, one cell splits into two, to into four.

          • Starstorm

            It’s already alive, whether you like it or not. You may not think it isn’t just because it doesn’t have a heart or a brain…But it is already alive.

      • Starstorm

        So no, humans are not just a group of cells.

      • were4life

        Yes, you are a group of cells. Would a violent assault and murder against you be justified, based on your argument?

  • MelWag

    Thank you for sharing this story. I had a miscarriage very early on about 6 years ago and have been hoping to get pregnant since with no luck. If you choose not to keep your baby, why end what will be a beautiful life. There are so many couples like my husband and I out there who cannot have children who would love to adopt

    • nelda

      Hello can u rrach out to me….I would like to talk..

      • were4life

        Nelda, if you are considering placing your baby for adoption, that is a beautiful, courageous & noble thing to do. I know of a lot of couples who would love to have a baby. I could put you in touch with one of them if you’d like.

      • nikki77

        Nelda feel free to message me if you need to talk.

      • Joanne

        Please go through an adoption agency if your planning on adoption for your baby. Please don’t use the Internet to find strangers to adopt. Too many sick and twisted people out there looking to get their hands on a baby without having to go through all the red tape. Please becareful for your baby’s sake

        • were4life

          There are also a lot of very wonderful people out there who can not list with an adoption agency because they do not have the $20 K- $30 K that it takes to go through an agency, so just bear that in mind.

  • mburgess

    Brook Nichols, what if that unwanted child that was aborted could cure cancer.
    I don’t think you know all the facts here. And some of your points are not even legitimate. Please do research this, and understand that you have a voice, the unborn do not!

    • jenmoz93

      I believe everything happens for a reason. If a child wasn’t meant to live, then it wasn’t meant to live. If it was going to cure cancer some day, it just wasn’t meant to happen yet. But why does an unborn child, who is sucking the nutrients out of its host, have more rights than a living woman?

    • CS

      What if the mother does?

  • Margaret

    When I read the words ‘pro-abortion’ I lost all respect for this article.

    • were4life

      Because it should have said “pro-death for children in the womb” instead, right? Right. I agree. Let’s call a spade a spade! Let’s just admit that “choice” is a nice euphemism for *murder* and that *fetus* is a nice, de-humanizing term for “child in the womb” and that a mother does not become unpregnant when she kills this child. Rather she then becomes the mother of a deceased child who was tortured through an awful process called “abortion”.

      • jenmoz93

        A fetus is a fetus in the first trimester. It resembles nothing close to a baby.

        • JGH

          Here’s the problem I see in this debate: it is about what is right and what is wrong, not about choice.
          “Pro-choice” people don’t want to admit babies in the womb are babies and use “scientific definitions” to prove they are right, but ignore the fact that a human can’t produce anything but another human. A baby at 1 week in the womb has the same genetic material as an 8 week old baby outside of the womb. I heard my first baby’s heartbeat at 5 weeks! The other examples I have seen in this discussion of why abortion should be kept around, such as the 11 yr old who was raped and became pregnant are such extreme examples. They can’t be used to justify the larger group of people who are just not willing to make a lifestyle change or just don’t believe they can.
          Its hard to change and put someone else before yourself, especially in a society where self is the most important person and what “I” want is more important than anything else. That is the problem here. In my opinion half of these “reasons” for abortion being a vital choice are just selfish justifications for women to avoid consequences for their and their partner’s poor choices. (And no I’m not talking about the women that were forced, that wasn’t their choice.) I’m talking about women who say they can’t get an education or have a career or the lifestyle they want with a child in the picture.
          People say well don’t have sex, and I agree, but for those that say well sometimes birth control or contraceptives fail, well then you are responsible. Period. That’s all there is to it. If you choose to have sex , you have to know of the possible consequences. I mean come on they are teaching that to kids in fifth grade these days. So to say, “well they didn’t want to get pregnant so its okay that she terminates i.e. kills her baby” is just not right.
          Obviously, in the extreme rare cases where the mom is going to die and the baby needs to be taken early that option needs to be available. But I believe elective abortions should not be an option at all. Murder is always wrong. Therefore, elective abortion is always wrong. Period.

  • bunnybutt23

    Yay just what we need on this planet…. More people! Human beings need to start procreating more mindfully. I terminated at 6 weeks and never regret it. “He deserved his chance”….please. Life is not that great. Also I can’t think of any reason for having kids that is not completely selfish in the first place. Love and light to all!!!!

    • shdihdjnd

      Positive energy forever transcends!

      • were4life

        And in English, that means…… what?

    • were4life

      Project Rachel provides wonderful healing for post-abortive women. Your child was a person – with a beautiful face – eyes, ears, nose, mouth, tiny little fingers and toes – and a heart that beat full of love for you…… and you rejected that love and rejected that child – which is a tragedy, and was wrong – and one day, you will recognize that – and the tears will come. However, there is a wideness in God’s mercy if you confess your sin and ask Him for forgiveness. There is healing in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Godbless. I will be praying for you and all of the post-abortive women here.

      • jenmoz93

        I’m sorry but do you know nothing about fetal development? There really is no face at 6 weeks. Arm buds don’t come until like week 7 or 8. A fetus definitely doesn’t have fingers and toes at week 6. Its heart may have been pumping blood, but the fetus is only about the size of the tip of a pen. It doesn’t feel anything. It wouldn’t survive on its own.

        • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

          Oh no…the old&tired, aging-hippie pro-abort rant about what it does not know squat about—SCIENCE: abortion kills an unborn human being and emotionally mauls his/her mom.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      That’s nothing! Wait until the MAJORITY of ProLife Americans abolish the killing of unborn human beings! Can you say—-P-A-R-T-A-A-A-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y!!!?

  • gritsngravy418

    I had two miscarriages in 1974 & 1976. But to this VERY second, I can still remember the sound of each baby crying and because each was at a different hospital and had different doctors, I have wondered how both doctors told me almost the same story. “It was just a mass of cells and tissues. No crying” Yet, I I can STILL remember their very different cries and they have will haunted me to this very day. Wondering what each would have become. One was soft & mewing the other deeper. But I know we will see each other again and I pry for that day!!

    • Lisa Chamberlin Rangel

      Maybe the doctors were telling you not to cry, which is insane. They think, why cry, it wasn’t a real baby. So “no crying”. Just a thought. Sorry for your losses.

    • Toni

      I think doctors say that for themselves. If they can convince themselves that it is just a bunch of tissue – just a “tumor” to be removed – then they are not committing murder.

      • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

        Oh, the “doctors” know better. They just get paid. Now, the technical terms are a long-time-soon-to-end pro-abort tactic used to desensitize the poor&vulnerable moms to actually commit to kill their unborn babies. It’s despicable pro-abort misogyny, for profit.

        • Amorphous Mammal

          What does misogyny have to do with it? Don’t be stupid.

          • jessicaaitchison

            Misogyny has everything to do with it. Women, even now, are shown very little respect. While today is leaps and bounds ahead of 100 years ago, things still aren’t good. If men were the ones getting pregnant abortion clinics would be like starbucks: one on every street.

          • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

            You’re stupid if you are incapable of answering your own stupid question, stupid.

        • webtraveler2

          Pro-CHOICE is NOT pro-abortion. Let’s get that straight right from the beginning. There are PLENTY of well-informed women who CHOOSE to have an abortion. Not your body, not your life, not your business, not your decision – PERIOD!

          • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

            Pro-“choice”-to-kill-unborn-human-beings=PRO-ABORT.

            Not going to get anything “straight” with a sick&twisted, pro-“choice”to kill unborn human beings pro-abort.

            NO mom in a crisis pregnancy would EVER KILL HER OWN UNBORN BABY if she were given the WHOLE UGLY A$$ ATROCITY that abortion is!

            Said just like the ol’ slave masters: Not your black slave, not your black body, not your damned business, not your property, not your decision—GET OVER IT!!!

      • rachel 81

        I’m pregnant with identical triplets 33 weeks the doctor told me to get rid of two of my baby’s to give the one baby a chance. I can’t believe that they would ask that as all three baby’s are healthy. Sorry for your losses xxxx

        • Kal

          Please pick a different doctor!

        • a7xrocker1981

          One British couple I saw on TV said it was like trying to pick which of your children you want to murder. All three girls were healthy.

        • Kathy Head O’Bradovic

          Don’t do it! My cousin delivered QUADS That’s FOUR…and they are all healthy beautiful children.

    • willowsprite

      How dare they not even let you see them, hold them? Even if just to say goodbye… I wonder why they could not save them…if they were strong enough to cry, why could the doctors not save them? So sorry you have experienced this…

  • jenmoz93

    I’m sorry to anybody that has lost a child, but during the first trimester it really is just a bunch of cells. It resembles nothing to a human being. 19 weeks is not in the first trimester, it’s in the second. And it upsets me that people judge women that get abortions the way some of the commenters are (I only support abortion in the first trimester, after that I am with you guys). It is still a woman’s body, and if she doesn’t have the ability or desire to go through the struggles of being pregnant, she shouldn’t have to ensure it.

    • MamaBear

      By 5 weeks there is a beating heart.
      By 8 weeks there is measurable brain activity.
      By 12 weeks there are arms, legs, fingers, toes, a face…….

      • jenmoz93

        And do you realize that in the first trimester that “baby” is technically just a parasite? It can’t survive on its own. A woman is dilated more when she gives birth than what the size of the child is at the end of the first trimester.

        • MamaBear

          A baby, at whatever stage, cannot be a parasite. Biology 101, a parasite is an organism that obtains shelter and nourishment on or within an organism of a differing species.

          • jenmoz93

            Lol clearly you don’t know the definition of the word parasite

          • MamaBear

            Took it straight from a science dictionary.

          • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

            I do! jenmoz93=parasite

        • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

          You are seriously despicable.

  • Sheri

    Parents of Miscarriage have been taking pictures of their baby’s for years. But the media will not publish them normally, and I have had members of my support group get banned by Facebook for posting them. We have hundreds of these beautiful baby’s photos posted in our support group for women of miscarriage where they can share them without fear of getting reported or chastised. But I am glad this story has been made public. So sorry for their loss.

  • Amy Lamisac

    Nobody is “pro-abortion” but people are pro-choice.. touching story, yet some people who choose to abort at this stage do so because bringing a child into the world may not be a possibility for them in terms of mental health, lack of support, or money. The point of pro-choice is giving the mother who can’t support a child a chance.. Again pleased to see this article changed the minds of some but frustrated at the arrogance.

    • myintx

      No one should have a ‘choice’ to kill an unborn child unless it’s the only option available to save the life of the pregnant woman.

      • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

        Actually, the medical experts have stated themselves that there is no such case as having to kill the mom’s unborn baby to save her life. Once again, that is a pro-abort deceitful tactic to kill unborn babies for BIG $$MONEY$$.

        • Basset_Hound

          It may be necessary to deliver the baby so early that it is unlikely to survive. However in that situation, they perform a c-section, deliver the child and offer it comfort care. They don’t give it a shot of digitoxin to “quiet the fetal heart”. They don’t dismember it, nor do they do anything to deliberately cause the death of the child.

          • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

            And unless you’re anti-Christian, ALL is possible with God.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      The pro-aborts support the killing of unborn human beings. And the stupid pro-aborts that called themselves that, changed that label to pro-“choice”(to kill unborn human beings), because the pro-aborts are too stupid to realize their mistake.

  • Elsa perez

    I had Alexandra at 19 wks as well. She was perfect. The hospital I delivered at took pics for me. I treasure those to this day.

  • Linda Comiska

    I believe everything happens for a reason and I think this is beautiful that they are sharing their story because this will change a lot of minds about abortion and I think that is truly God’s message coming thru. God bless this family.

    • Bonnie

      When I was pregnant with my daughter I had just given birth one year before to my oldest daughter when she was five weeks old i had a life threatening case of pancreatitis I was in hospital for months and almost died three or four times….I was 21 and unhappy with my marriage and I became pregnant right after I was do I’ll I was scared and very upset when I was told I was pregnant my dr advised me I had the choice to end the pregnancy and encouraged me to do soon given my recent battles with death…..I looked at my dr and told her this child didn’t ask to be conceived and I had to a moral right to end his or her’s life I couldn’t…….9 months later a gave to a 7lb perfect baby girl the joy of my life and not one day goes I am not thankful for her being my daughter….

      • Linda Comiska

        So glad you didn’t listen to the doctor and had your daughter. She’s a gift from God.

  • MamaBear

    How a woman and her baby are treated when there is a late miscarriage unfortunately varies from place to place and what time period.
    Over 20 years ago, a friend, whose baby would be considered to have a chance today, had a baby too early to live at that time. Since the baby was expected to still be alive at birth, the doctors even asked if they wanted a priest or minister in the delivery room for immediate baptism. (My friend didn’t but there had been other families that did want that.) The baby was wrapped and given the mom to hold much like in the picture above. When they asked for the body for burial, the baby was given them washed and dressed in a sweet outfit that must have been doll clothes.
    I realize this would not be possible with early miscarriages. But, they still need to be handled in a way that respects that this is a loss of life.

    • Drod

      I am so sorry for all of your losses.
      I had a still born at 36 weeks 4 years ago. I was Blessed to have been at a hospital that handled my loss with such care. Baby Grace stayed in my room for my entire stay, I was given a photo album filled with many pictures, footprints, and a memory box. We had a full funeral and are able to visit her grave site.
      I still have good and bad days. Some days I can talk to others about my loss, others I cry just thinking about her. It does get better. I remember every thought, fear, tear, emotion of that day….I don’t think I will ever let that go. Let yourself grieve. No matter what anyone thinks you should be feeling.
      I pray that more and more medical facilities adopt this type of care.

  • Brittany W.

    I had 2 sons born at 18 and a half weeks, my boys were 5yeard apart. I also took pictures. I was young and afraid to share my story. I never realized all the good that can come from it. My boys looked like that as well. With my oldest My water had broke but because I wasnt 20weeks I had to wait in the E.R I was 17. Most horrific thing ive had to go through in my life. People dont realize that pre term babies arnt just tissue or cells but actual little tiny humans. They feel pain just like everyone else. Thank you for sharing your story and your pictures

  • Angie Lollar

    Lexi, your Walter is beautiful and I’m so sorry for your loss. I’ve always hated the whole idea of abortion. I pray that God continue to show people thru your baby’s pics that he and all babies are not just a blob of tissue. If there want any life at conception, they would not grow. It’s common sense. I pray that God bless you and your sweet family and comfort your hearts. Just know that He evidently had a special purpose for your Walter….in a sense He sent Walter to show the world that babies are miracles and they’re living from day one! ;) Thank you for sharing such a sad time in your life with the world….I’m sure a lot of eyes have been opened and a lot of babies lives have been spared because of you and your precious little Walter! God bless you!

  • Arthur Radley

    WTF is going on here? This is a personal time for the family, not a time to go all “stop all abortions now”

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      Sure it is.
      Ya might wanna read what the mom said at the end, arty.

  • Tiffany Backhaus

    I recently had a miscarriage of my own at 8 weeks and it was the hardest thing I’ve ever went through. I can not imagine how someone can end a life of a helpless BABY. It is not just a “mass of cells” it is a human being with a heart and a brain. How can you kill that? It sickens me just thinking about it. Abortion is not the answer. If you can not physically, mentally, emotionally, or financially provide for a child there is ALWAYS the option for adoption. Let that life live and give him/her to someone who can not conceive a baby or can not carry a baby full term. Don’t end a life because you feel you can not do it. Think before you decide to end a life that has no say.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      So sorry for your loss. Stay strong

  • Jack Winkel

    our daughter was killed at 16, and I still cry 13 yrs. later. The strength of ALL You beautiful Women, has helped Me today. God bless you ALL!!!!

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      Thank you for your precious&kind words. Prayers w/you.

  • Brandien Jade Huggins

    Yall will never understand the heartbreak of the decision a woman has to make when choosing to have an abortion until u ur self have experienced plz do not judge unless u have made that decision . Yes there are woman who do it for the wrong reasons as is in any aspect of life.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      It seems you are the one that will never or rather chooses not to understand that there as multitudes of moms who have made the horrific “choice” to kill their unborn babies and severely regret it. These moms are suffering the pain&agony of that sick&twisted so-called “choice” to kill your own child for the rest of their lives. That is what the misogynist pro-aborts offer women.

      • Brandien Jade Huggins

        U r one who choses to judge rather than understand! !!

        • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

          Everyone judges! You just judged that I ‘chose.’ It may be difficult for you to comprehend something as simple as that, but the fact of the matter is abortion KILLS an unborn human being and emotionally MAULS his/her mom.

        • momcubed

          There is a difference between judging and trying to change people’s minds. At no point have I ever heard anyone on this board say that anyone was going to hell for having an abortion. That is judging. Countering pro-choice arguments with logic and science is not.

        • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

          To judging ‘guest’:

          Everyone judges! You just judged that I ‘chose.’ It may be difficult for you to comprehend something as simple as that, but the fact of the matter is abortion KILLS an unborn human being and emotionally MAULS his/her mom.

  • ob nurse

    I will never understand how someone can choose to have an abortion. I’m an ob nurse, and I love getting see all those little miracles. I’ve also experienced a miscarriage. My husband and I will be married 10 years this year. We have tried for about 9 years to have a baby. We’ve done fertility treatments. Only had 1 pregnancy that ended at 7 weeks. I was devastated. I hope this story continues to help others. I am so sorry for your loss! In my opinion, abortion should never be a form of birth control!

  • Paige

    So because people regret thinking about termination it should be illegal. It’s also pro-choice, not “pro-abortion”. I’m terribly for your loss, and it’s definitely heartwarming, but that doesn’t mean it should give someone the excuse to tell me what I should do with my womb because that’s my decision.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      Who said anything about making “thinking about” the killing of unborn human beings, illegal?

      No one is buying the PRO-ABORT/PRO-“CHOICE”-TO-KILL-UNBORN-HUMAN-BEINGS BS. So, you can quit your pro-abort failure of lies&deceit, because America has woken up to your pro-abort bs and they are MAD.

      WOMEN DESERVE BETTER than abortion. abortion KILLS an unborn HUMAN BEING and emotionally MAULS his/her mom.

      BREAK THE CHAINS of abortion! ABOLISH abortion—NOW!!!

      America=PROLIFE MAJORITY. Get it? You will.

  • Kacee W.

    May God bless the family of Baby Walter as his story opens the eyes of those who have not fully lost their souls. If you ask me, the “choice” part comes at the time of conception. If you dont want to have a baby, don’t engage in intercourse. And before anyone brings up rape, I wouldn’t blame a woman for terminating after a situation like that, but let me ask you, how is it the babies fault? Don’t you believe in the American Constitution that “every citizen has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”? Food for thought.

  • jsbwalker

    I don’t really know what is so shocking about the fact that this fetus is baby shaped. At this point of gestation only the kidneys are functioning and nerve cells are only beginning to specialize to different tasks in the brain.The fetus cannot feel, cannot breathe, and may only be beginning to move as the brain develops the ability to react to stimulus.

    This article seems designed to provoke an emotional response instead of offer an actual argument.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      “baby shaped”???

      You do know we’re not made with cookie-cutters, right?

      Your pro-abort rant is typical of the disgruntled pro-abort failure that will abolish abortion that kills an unborn human being and emotionally mauls his/her mom.

      BREAK THE CHAINS of abortion! ABOLISH abortion—NOW!!!

      WOMEN DESERVE BETTER than abortion—DEMAND REPARATIONS!!

      • Mary Lee

        “Baby-shaped”….!!! Wow, that one is beyond the pale, right?

        BABY-SHAPED!!!!

  • Janie Lynn Dezarov

    What a touching story, bring back so many memories. It pains me to hear people are for abortion. When it is brought up, I go from 50 to 100 in no time. Some people don’t think about other who don’t get the opportunity or even think about the baby growing inside of them. I’ve lost 3 babies, (1 birth at 23 wks that passes shortly, miscarriage at 8 weeks, miscarriage at 15 weeks- fetal demise) my last miscarriage was so hard us as a family. But I have a 3 yr old, who changed my world. She was born at 32 weeks. I’m currently 19 weeks with a boy. Due to health issues, it’s hard for me to get pregnant and to carry to full term. My heart goes out to all of those who have been there. God bless.

  • Jackie

    This is an amazing story. Thank you for sharing. I will believe till the day I die it is up to the woman. You can say whatever you would like but it will not change the law!!! It’s the choice we have and thank GOD I am able to make that choice. Some day I am sure it will change but for now it is what it is.

  • Ashley Dolin

    So precious. I was carrying twins and lost one 7 weeks into the pregnancy. The other twin survived and is a vibrant almost 3 year old. Aborting is against my beliefs and I appreciate stories like this to show God’s life. Angel’s are made with these precious little lives lost.

  • Kathy

    I had 2 babies at 5 months. The first one at the first hospital did not let me see or anything, just said I miscarried , yet I had to go the labor and have. The second was a son and I went thru labor and delivery and got to hold him and this hospital wrapped him in a blanket and took pictures for us. I cherished those pictures but they disappeared in my divorce somehow. Life is long before delivery.. To lay and listen to your baby’s heartbeat while in labor and then to have them die right after birth is heart wrenching. We deserve to see our babies if we choose too

  • Patty

    I lost a baby at 18 weeks in 1980. I’m 60 years old now. Back then, they just rushed it off and I never saw him/her. I just weeped looking at these pictures, because I wish I had even known the sex. Thank you for sharing these pictures that I could even get a glimpse of what he/she looked like. Can’t wait to meet my other child in Heaven someday! Thank you!

    • Rachel Thompson

      I miscarried at 23 weeks the Dr.s say I actually lost my Chelsea Renee at 19 weeks gestation. I did get the chance to see my baby girl! *6/15/14*

    • Lilian

      I’m sorry you experienced such poor care.

  • fuckoff

    I had an abortion because I wanted to

  • Stef

    I was born at 5months…… Never ceases to amaze me.
    How anyone could possibly think we’re not “human” from the point of conception is beyond me.

    • were4life

      How many weeks gestation were you?

    • Dr. Illhearted

      Because if the fertilized ovule doesn’t implant there’s no pregnancy, no fetus.

      • Nurse Kindheart

        Dr. Illhearted, an unimplanted fetus is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about preterm deliveries where there was loss of life. Go away!

      • were4life

        Life begins at conception! The correct term for post-fertilization is “conceptus” or blastocyst. The next stage is zygote, and then embryo. By the time a woman miscarries in the 4th week of pregnancy, she miscarries an embryo. These are all stages of human life, just like pre-term infant, term infant, baby, toddler, preschooler, elementary-aged child, adolescent, adult, elderly person. We look different with each stage of life, but are no less human. You are speaking of a very early miscarriage which occurs in the 4rth week of pregnancy. This type of miscarriage is actually called a 2nd trimester loss, or a stillbirth.

      • Lilian

        And if the fetus doesn’t survive pregnancy, there’s no newborn. What’s your point?

        Also, whether pregnancy begins at conception or implantation is a subject of contention even among OB/GYNs.

  • Dawn Moses

    after the first trimester, its illegal to have an abortion, i understand those who think no one should have abortions, that is your opinion, and here is mine, if there was something wrong with the baby, and the parents couldn’t continue on with the pregnancy that’s there decision and i applaud the parents who can continue on, girls who was raped, if they decide they couldn’t continue on the the pregnancy, thats there decision, i applaud the ones who can continue, girls who was raped by family members (incest) its there decision, again i applaud those who could continue, there are many reason why abortion should be available for women, look how many women died after the true illegal abortions, I feel very sad for the women out there who have had miscarriages, my mother had 10 when i was growing up, i feel empathy for any women who had to go through that, but please think about all the women out there that they felt abortion was there only means, do you think its an easy decision? no its not! however, i do not believe a women should use abortion for for birth control, that is wrong, and human lives are very important, but look at all the unwanted children in this world who end up in foster care, or even worst end up getting murdered, by there parents, yes, there is adoption, do you know how hard it is to adopt? most want new born babies instead of the growing number of children living in the system.. yes, there are reasons for abortion..

    • myintx

      Unfortunately, it’s not illegal to have an abortion in the US after the first trimester. If you are against the killing of unborn children after the first trimester you, like a majority of Americans, have a fundamental disagreement with Roe V Wade. Roe V Wade should be overturned.

    • MamaBear

      Abortions are harder to get and more expensive, but they are

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      Your opinion supports that a woman deserves to be offered the “choice” to kill her unborn baby that emotionally mauls his/her mom.

      The “doctors”(usu. pro-abort) have been WRONG in their diagnoses.

      A mom who’s already been violated by rape does NOT want to be further traumatized by killing her unborn baby. Case after case shows the moms are actually comforted that they do not kill their babies, and horrified&more harmed when they do.

      But don’t expect to hear it from the pro-aborts that lie, cheat&steal everything from a poor&vulnerable mom so to profit from her crisis.

  • Dee Dunbar

    MY DAUGHTER LOST HER first child this week and my heart is breaking! she was 13 weeks.

    • MamaBear

      May God send peace and comfort to you, your daughter, and your family. These little ones are not lost to us, they precede us to Heaven.

  • Gabby

    It’s amazing how God knits a precious little human in a woman’s womb. I pray that ppl would read and look at these pictures of this precious perfect baby boy and see that this is a human, especially women who want to murder their babies by abortion. I don’t know first hand what it’s like to go through a miscarriage , I’m pregnant with my first baby right now and in the final couple of weeks. But that fear is still on my mind. Reading some of the comments below I cannot even imagine the pain you ladies have gone through and how the hospital and doctors treated you and your babies. I am so sorry for the loss of your precious babies. Take comfort in knowing your little ones are with the Lord in heaven :)
    Psalm 139:13-16

  • AJL

    I have had a total of 4 miscarriages. First one I was almost 5 months which was twins and all the others was 2 to 3 months. It’s heart breaking. I can get pregnant but for some reason I can not carry them to full term. It’s devastating.

    • NaproTechnology is available

      Please google naprotechnology and Pope Paul VI Institute. They are helping women around the world!

  • Savannahsmom

    In August of 2000 I lost a little girl, Savannah Grace, at 22 weeks. My water broke at 20 weeks and for 2 long weeks I was in the hospital trying to repair the sack. She weighed just at a pound and looked like her father. Even through she did not survive the labor, our doctor lovingly delivered her and had the nurses clean her, dress her in a tiny gown, take her foot prints and a picture. Then as we held our precious child, he wrapped his arms around us and prayed with us. Her due date would have been December 7, 2000. Exactly one year to day of her due date, I delievered a healthy 6 lb baby boy. When he was born (via c-section), there was not a dry eye in the OR. Savannah Grace was our 5th daughter. Joseph Evan is our only son and our last child. God is good.

    • a7xrocker1981

      22 week preemies have survived. So sorry for your loss.

      • Beemer

        My husband was born January 15 1971 not due until April 15 1971 he weighed one pound and a few ounces he was baptized right after he was born he was rushed to a hospital in Rochester NewYork at that time his chance of survival was less than 5% he is now 44 years old…..when he was 11 he lost his mom to cancer….I wonder at times if she asked God to take her to save him and she was given 11yrs more with her children before she passed away…..I don’t know and I know science says no buts that’s how I feel…..bless you all

  • Sherry

    32 years ago, I delivered triplets at 20 weeks. 2 boys and a girl. They were perfect in every way,,,,,just too tiny to survive more than an hour. Although their time on earth was short, their memory lives with me always. I never held them, and that is my biggest regret. I have no pictures either, but they looked just like Walter. I do have their birth certificates, with their miniature foot prints! So precious!! I’ve always said,,,,anyone who believes in abortion should have seen my babies. That would change their mind. Thank you for sharing your story, one so many have gone through, and one so many need to see!

  • Mary DeLongchamp Mandigo

    That is the most wonderful little baby….oh Lord…how sweet they had that time with that little baby…..so sad that he had to return to heaven so soon…but only God knows the plan for him and for that family….He sent him for a short time for a wonderful reason, to show people how these tiny little babies aren’t just blobs…they are ALIVE. THEY ARE HUMAN BABIES…..

  • Solo 413

    A choice is all anyone asks for… I am a male, and leave that deciison to the woman, because its her body… but i wont be so ignorant as to not give her a CHOICE…

    whatever your excuses are…. its a PERSONAL choice… be it abortion or assisted suicide,, the burden is on the person who makes that decision…

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      And the pro-aborts ONLY offer the pro-“choice”-to-kill-an-unborn-human-being.

      There is NO “choice.” It is a profitable pro-abort tactic to kill. And if you disagree—the pro-abort attacks you because you are in their way of their $$$.

      • Solo 413

        LOL… a choice is a yes or no…..
        they can keep it, but dont depend on us to take care of them… its not our responsibility for you stupid decision making…if u cant afford a kid, dont go having unprotected sex…. its very simple…

        just as much as its a choice, as an adult, you have a responsibility…

        yes… our baby killig money.. and the plasms its really the plasma.. the money is nice but the baby plasma is the icing on the cake <— and if you believe that, then i have a h ammer for you,, please use it o n your own head..

        • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

          LMAO :D ;) , etc.

          A choice is SO much more than that, alone.

          As for the hateful hammer threat, it appears you’ve already used it on your own noggin, considering how you are incapable of using correct grammar.

  • leah

    Reading the comments is very sad to me. I have lost 8 babies now. My first one was 15 weeks. When the doctor took him out I begged to see him. He told me no because he was not formed well!! I was young at 20 and didn’t fight it. Now that I have 5 biological girls I always wonder what my only little boy looked like. I just wish I had one image , any imagine. I should have been able to make that descion myself!!!
    Thank God these people got to hold their baby and get these pictures!!

  • jodi

    and to think of all the lives little Walter saved with his short life. God Bless you.

  • c

    I had Isaac 10 years ago at 20 weeks gestation. I was fortunate that he lived for 2 1/2 hours. I got to hold him and my nurses gave me a bunch of pictures. I still treasure them and his memory to this day. He was 11 oz and 100% perfect (just miniature) baby.

  • Brie

    I miscarried at 16 weeks january 22nd 2015 thank you for sharing. I had a boy I had to deliver him and I named him David. He looked similar to that … Red coloring. The father was not present when I miscarried and I would guess he felt relief that he had no more responsibility . But I will always remember my son. I felt and sometimes feel so alone but this message has really touched me and challenged me that I’m not alone. David was a person and his mommy loved him immensely. I am Praying for everyone and their family who has gone through this. God bless

  • Amber

    I lost my twin girls in December of 2014 to twin to twin transfusion syndrome. They were 18 & 19 weeks along when we lost them, and I gave birth to two tiny, precious BABIES. We waited seven long, agonizing years for them, only to lose all of our hopes and dreams in 8 days. I am no longer the person I was before.

    Thankfully, i have pictures and memories of holding my daughters. My husband and I have necklaces with some of their ashes inside, to wear them close to our hearts. This family is brave to share their story.

  • DW

    Thank you Lexi & Joshua for sharing such precious and intimate photos of your baby boy. You are courageous and unselfish for doing so and the Lord is blessing your efforts. And you can be SURE little Walter is with our Father, playing and laughing and waiting to see his Mommy and Daddy and sisters. God bless you and your family.

  • angelica

    I also had a miscarriage I was 2 1/2 month pregnant I was young but I also wanted my baby now I am blessed with my 6 years old son

  • Julie Catalano

    I’ve had 6 miscarriages and 4 full term pregnancies. Each one was different, but the one I am reminded of is the one I had in October of 1985; that is when I lost my little boy, John Haley (like the comet – he was born in the year of the comet). I was about 18 weeks and had a partial placental abruption. The little rural hospital tried to stop the labor, but it just continued as I listened to his little heartbeat begin to slow down just before he was born. One little push and out he came. He opened up like a little flower as he tried to breath but was unable to. I was sobbing, and my doctor was very concerned because I was still bleeding and he had to reach in and yank my placenta out. As they prepared the OR for an emergency D&C, they gave me a pan with my little boy in it and allowed me some time to hold him, count his little fingers and toes and to notice that his second toe was longer than his big toe like my moms. Except for a bruise on his head, he was perfectly formed. He looked a lot like my second son. There is a lot more to my story, but suffice it to say John is with Jesus – how do I know? Because the Lord showed him to me one time and I know he is there with his other siblings who went before their time and are waiting for the day I join them. The Lord was gracious and a year later I was pregnant with my fourth son whose due date was the same as John’s had been. I was using birth control and got pregnant anyway – I think it was God filling my empty womb and healing my heart. Despite what you think about abortion, a new life begins at conception and whether aborted, miscarried, or full term, that life continues on either here or in eternity. After all my children were born, I became an OB nurse and have enjoyed every new life I have cared for and helped those who have lost babies as well.

  • Bertha

    “Woman births 18 week old fetus that looks like 18 week old fetus. This changes literally nothing about the abortion debate.”

    • Annie

      I think its trying to say that even when its a fetus it looks like a human. The whole restating that abortion is killing a human. BUT legal abortions are not performed at 18 weeks… They are performed before twelve… when it is an embryo, not a fetus… and it looks nothing like a human… Its very unfortunate for this family. But this in no way, shape or form (unless a person is that ignorant) would change a pro choice person’s mind.

      • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

        You may be surprised how many unsuspecting folks that break out of the lie&ignorance of the pro-abort/pro”choice”(to kill unborn human beings) trick, would actually change their minds. Been there, done that.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      In your pro-abort nightmares, perhaps.

  • Kat

    A very touching and sad story. My condolences to their family for losing a loved one. However, banning abortion would still make an unsafe environment for those who chose to abort. I would rather a woman made the decision to abort and be able to do so in a safe, sterile environment than to do so with a clothes hanger in their bedroom. Murder or not, the increase of alley abortions will skyrocket if abortion is outlawed.

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      No, banning abortion would save unborn human beings from being killed and stop the moms from committing the heinous atrocity of killing their unborn baby.

      Women NEVER need to kill their unborn babies! That is a sick&twisted pro-abort tactic to kill & collect the pro-abort ca$h!

      Women deserve better than abortion. abortion kills an unborn human being and emotionally mauls his/her mom. BREAK THE CHAINS of abortion!

  • smitz

    you got to ask your self …does the world need a baby that the mom or dad will not love? she or he will grow up feeling alone and waiting for there mom and dad to maybe meet them one day. in the end maybe its best that they need to not have it?
    you got to look at the bigger pic

    • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

      NO child is “unloved.” Adoption is the answer to that, but the sick&twisted pro-aborts just want to kill the unborn & collect their ca$h.

  • Andreas Waldahl Fd Lidfors

    Even though this I am still proabortion, BUT. But not as in the US. If you are to have one at the later stages you have to have specific reasons. Such as the child is sick och the health of the mother is at stake.

  • ttravline

    Amazing! I will never understand though, why more, people don’t consider adoption as an option? Abortion isn’t the only “way out”,and it’s safer for mom and baby gives everyone a fightin chance with little, to no regrets. ☺ Adoption is the loving option. <3

  • Mikka

    My daughter Anna looked the same. I got to hold her and have pictures. This pain is something that no one can describe unless you’ve lived it. March 8, 2009 was the worst day of my life. But she’s with God and the Angels now…

  • were4life

    Abortion deaths and serious injuries are often covered up, and thus they are not listed as part of the statistics. The truth is that it happens far more often than you would think. Read about Kermit Gosnell & Karmamonga Moyer. Read about Jennifer Morbelli & her abortionist. Just read the Kermit Gosnell Grand Jury Trial. Just read that and try to remain unmoved.

  • Britney Emmons

    I lost my son at 16 weeks and 6 days and he looked like this! wish I s could share a pic! abortion is MURDER!!!
    My son moved and squirmed for minutes and his HEART was Beating! that makes them a HUMAN LIFE, why should it be okay for people to take that?

  • rachel

    I don’t understand. Most woman have an anatomy scan at 20 weeks. They measure the head the limbs and you could find out the sex. Why would you believe at 19 weeks the baby was tissue and cells? It magically has all these things to measure and see in the ultrasound in under a week?

  • Jay

    Abortion is a huge money making business. If a young girl goes into Planned Parenthood for advice on what to do about her pregnancy, what do you think they’ll be more likely to sway her towards: An adoption or birth which makes them ZERO dollars, or an abortion will will make them a good profit???? I went through it myself at 19 years old at a time when I was uneducated on the subject, & very lost and confused. They took advantage of that and could’ve cared less about my future or my emotional health.
    It’s sickening that our tax dollars support these types of organizations.

    • Vanessa

      This is incorrect. Abortion is just one of the many services that Planned Parenthood provides. They perform well-women exams, STD testing, and HPV/Hep A and B vaccinations. They provide education on contraceptives, information about family planning (spacing children) and more. It is not an abortion factory.

      • Mary Lee

        Really? Give me a break. See the economics in my comment above.

    • webtraveler2

      Abortion is only 3% of the services used at Planned Parenthood! They are there to inform the patient of ALL of their options, then help connect them with the people for the decision that was made. Wow, you are GROSSLY uneducated on what Planned Parenthood does. I’m guessing you have no idea what gynecologists do either. They off er gynecological services from women. Services and birth control is based on income. And not ALL women who go to PP go their because they are poor. I know MANY college student who go there because they can’t afford any other options. They provide birth control options and education, Pap smears, annual exams, breast exams, STD testing, screening for many female cancers, infertility problems, and many other issues.

      • Mary Lee

        Really? Seriously? Will you pro-aborts please stop peddling lies and take an economics course? Please?

        Let’s say I have an automotive shop. I offer all kinds of services like brake repair ($130), tire rotation ($75), transmission leaks ($200), and transmission replacement ($800), and transmission replacement is “3%” of all the services I offer. Let’s say in one week I do 5 brake repairs ($650), 5 tire rotations ($375), 2 transmission leaks ($400), 3 transmission replacements ($2400). ….Which service is the most profitable? Gosh, I don’t know. Could it be the one that’s supposedly only “3%” of all the services I offer? Could that be it?

        In 2010, Planned Parenthood committed 329,445 abortions. They state that a surgical abortion generally costs between $300 and $950 in the first trimester, and a chemical abortion costs between $300 and $800. Even if I use the lowest figure (giving some benefit of the doubt), Planned Parenthood made—at minimum—$98,833,500 from abortions in 2010.

        The REVENUE the generate from abortion is waaaaaaaaaay beyond 3%.

        And if Planned Parenthood wasn’t “pro-abortion”….then why do they offer certificates of recognition for those who provide the “most abortions”….? Planned Parenthood actually uses misdirection here, like snake oil salesmen.

  • 20yrs gone

    We lost a child at 16 weeks and I still regret to this day that I did not take a picture of him. He had two older sisters that said he was so cute. Even for his size he was perfect. During my hospital stay I was annoyed at people saying they were sorry for our loss but it was only tissue. Pretty sure I’m not blind to the tiny head, those little feet and hands or the overall perfect body. Thanks for sharing your loss with us.

  • diddly01

    So sad for this family….this was their son. We lost our 44 year old son the same year, to a heart problem, and even after 44 years, I still remembered his first cry. Mothers never forget the baby they carried within them.

  • Cindy Beatrice Candelaria

    This was me 1/25/15 I was giving birth to my baby boy, Ian (who was also very active…) At 19 weeks and 6 days. You can literally insert my name and my husband’s name here, as EVERYTHING you wrote, we have experienced, said, and thought about our baby and the whole situation. We also held him in our arms and admired him, staring at his perfection. He was loved. And they all deserve to be loved and celebrated. It’s obligatory to think of this matter when you go through something like this. Throughout the deep pain of our loss, we could only see him as a miracle, a glimpse of perfection, a glimpse of heaven. He was our star.

  • hillaryLiedAmericansDIED

    Thanks for your selfless&courageous&awesome love, Lexi—YOU ROCK!!!

  • Kelly Dell

    I am so so sorry for your loss…fly high little angel you were too precious for this world♡♡

  • Margo Cook

    Our baby born at 19 1/2 weeks, back in 1993, wiggled, and cried after her birth. Her heart beat for about 2 hours. Such a blessing to know she’s ours!

  • carolina

    wow i always thought abortion was okay to do depending on how each individual felt about it. but that was back then. now i see these pics and it touches my heart. im so sorry for all of your losses. a baby is the most precious gift a woman can recieve. much love and admiration to all the woman out there who have lost an angel.

  • nickileigh

    I lost my baby at 21 weeks, he was perfect and because he was to little breathe on his own. There was no saving him. Loren gene would be 8 years old and in the third grade, I believe God took him for a reason. But now I blessed with three wonderful baby that God gave me. Please know that God has a plan for everything, even when we get see just small piece of that picture. I am so sorry for you lost, I will pray for you that God will give you peace and comfort. Your baby is in good hands with God. Just trust him.

  • Ashley

    I think it is the women’s choice.
    Yes it is sad, but you shouldn’t take away a women’s right to terminate if that is what she feels is the best options. You don’t know everyone’s reasons and if you take away the option to have an abortion more women will probably die from trying to have one on their own. Either way you are killing a life.

    • Sarah

      so in that reasoning then it should be my choice to kill anyone else because you don’t know my reasons. That person could in the future kill or hit me in their car, so since I don’t want my life to end I should take theirs out. That’s just an excuse Ashley. The statistics aren’t high enough for killing the baby = saving the mom. My aunt was told when she was pregnant to abort the baby because the baby had so many things wrong with it and if my aunt bore the baby it would most likely kill her. That’s what the Drs told her. She refused and today my beautiful PERFECT healthy cousin is 18 and my wonderful amazing aunt is healthy as can be. Don’t use that excuse.

  • Debra

    We all know, it is not just a mass of cells, but a baby at that age, just is not viable! The lungs are not developed enough to maintain life outside the womb, not to mention the brain, and intestinal track. I am sorry, for everyone’s loss!

  • Xenia

    I miscarried at an earlier time, in 1977. Our baby boy, yes identified!!! was half that size! I had been in the hospital for 3 days and was informed that if I continued bleeding I would be aborted the next day. John came before abortion was performed. My husband and I were able to hold him for at least 15 minutes each, though the nurse was quite upset we did. He was perfectly formed at that stage of life though society calls it a blob — so wrong. (The ears were most impressive — psalm 139!). A unique experience which I’m thankful to my God to have allowed … and has used to help others in their final decision to not abort.

  • JJLH

    4 years ago my son and daughter in law lost their first child at almost 20 weeks. He however was far from perfect. He had 2 tumors on his brain. A cleft lip, no esophagitis, missing most of his stomach, and no for arms, or leg calves. Labor was induced due to the severity of his defects. His head was already abnormally large, and they were told that if they waited any longer the head would be so large they would have to take him c-section. Please do not say that termination is bad, in our case it was necessary for my daughter in law’s health.

  • Luzette

    I’m waiting for the moment when all the remaining morons realize these doctors are lying to you about the stage of a fetus, just for moneyyyyyyy!!!!!!

  • Jamie P

    I still feel that under certain circumstances the woman should have the right to choose. I’m not pro abortion by any means, but I do believe there are times when it should be an option. I don’t believe it should be used as a contraceptive, like a lot of women do, they should have been more cautious in their sexual encounters. I think its wrong though to rule out abortion for rape victims and such, where they had no consentual agreement to getting pregnant. You can’t tell someone to raise a child they never intended on having, because of something they never agreed to. This will always be a touchy subject, just like religion and politics. Someone will always agree to disagree.

    • Justa voice

      The child being created has no voice and also didn’t ask to be conceived. Therefore the unborn child has every right to enter into this world as you once did.

    • Mr. G.

      Lots of people who are pro-choice feel the same way, Jamie. Quite a few who would not choose abortion for themselves are unwilling to ban it for other women. 30% of American’s are full-out pro-birth, 34% can see where they might choose abortion, and 36% are people who would not have an abortion themselves but do not want to see it banned for others. .

  • Tha Amish One

    He was fully formed……..no he wasn’t. No lungs, no true stomach, no nerve centers from which to experience things.

  • Love2trailride

    As soon as that sperms enters the egg, it’s a life.

    • Kathy Hedlund

      GLAD TO KNOW SOMEONE ELSE THINKS LIKE ME ON ^ THAT COMMET… TY

    • webtraveler2

      Wrong! If the fertilized egg doesn’t implant into the uterine wall, then there is no pregnancy. Pregnancy begins at implantation. Human life has to begin with conception, but conception is not the same thing as pregnancy, the latter of which reason, science, and medical evidence agree begins when a fertilized egg successfully implants in the uterus and develops into a healthy embryo. Fertilized eggs take between six to 12 days to implant in the uterine lining. There simply is no pregnancy until this happens, which is why any method that prevents fertilization or implantation can not cause an abortion. A large share of fertilized eggs never successfully implant to establish a pregnancy: Between 50 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs never successfully imlpant and end in spontaneous miscarriage (and before a woman even knows she is pregnant) because of insufficient hormone levels or an non-viable egg or for some other reason.

      • Luv2trailride

        An opinion isn’t wrong.

        • jessicaaitchison

          Excepts it’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Or close to at least.

          • Luv2trailride

            okay, thank you somebody already told me that. I don’t need to be told again. I respect your opinions, respect mine. That’s the way that I feel.

  • Mr. Brown

    I thought Christians believe that the innocent go to heaven. Why be bent out of shape about a fetus in heaven? Maybe it was God’s plan all along?

  • Melissa McCollum

    20 years ago I was pregnant with a baby boy…I was told, after testing, that he would be a downs syndrome baby and that I had choices, I didn’t have to have him, I gave birth to that little boy, full term.. and he was perfect! He was 9 pounds 11 ounces of beautiful! He’s now 20 years old and I sometimes think back…how dare they tell me I could choose to get rid of him…

    • Jess

      When I read your comment, it was as if
      I had literally just read mine!!! Except I was 17 and alone.. My dr told me he would have Down’s syndrome.. I was so scared.. How could I put that on my family as I was still a child! I considered abortion even tho it was against everything I believed! I had never prayed before but I have it a shot.. A week later they called me and said it was a mistake.. My baby boy was sooo healthy and born at 9lbs 11 oz as well!! He is now 16 and extremely smart :)

  • Mrs. Ray

    I had a miscarriage on Christmas Day, at 19 weeks and was not giving the option to see my baby. However the doctor was able to tell me it was a boy…After two weeks of allowing this dramatic experience to sink in I was sad and upset I was never given the option to see my son :-( All I could think of was what did he look like and what did they do with him??? was he just thrown away like a piece of garbage?? I called the hospital and was informed he was still there! I wanted to be able to at the least name him and get a birth certification and or a death certificate, so it was not as if he never existed. I was told because he was not 20 weeks this was not an option for me:-( After speaking to someone who also miscarried they informed me I could cremate him and give him a name…Well of course I immediately called a funeral home to arrange for my son to be picked up and cremated. It was hard but brought comfort to me and my husband that although we were not able to see him we could bring him home to rest with us forever. After seeing these pictures I have to say although this is VERY sad it made me smile because I was able to see how my baby looked. I’m so sorry for your loss but thank you for sharing these pictures for other women who have gone thru the same situation who were not as fortunate as you to be able to see your baby and hold him/her…God bless you and your family…

  • Jess H

    Thank you so much for posting this. We had a similar loss. I needed to see this: people seeing that my son was my son – not a blob of tissue – not the hospital’s experiment to confiscate without permission just so they can study “spontaneous abortions” – not someone who was lost “too early” to be worth burying – no…he was my son, my baby, my sweet one who went through life too quickly. I love him. I miss him. He was real and he was alive and it’s not just me who knows it – and I really needed to see that.

  • Tiffany

    I lost my son at 18 weeks…he was fully developed as well like Walter. I did get to spend time with him before I had to say good-bye…I had an abortion when I was 13 years old (parents forced me) and when I lost my son I seen things way different.

  • erin

    Takes me back to when I lost my son at 20 weeks… He was gorgeous. And so is your child. God bless you guys. Rip Walter!

  • MaryAnna Stose

    I miscarried at 3 months. The doctor in the ED was very rough with me, and at one point told me he didn’t believe I was ever actually pregnant. My gut feeling was that my baby would have been a boy. I’ll never know. My “bundle of tissue and cells” was actually flushed down a toilet. I know my baby was not as developed as handsome little Walter, but I would give anything to have been able to see the face of the tiny piece of my heart that I had just lost.

  • Janell James- Long

    As a adopted child, I am glad my birth mom made the same decision. She was raped but loved me soo much she wanted to keep me. Due to no support she had to adopt me out. I love her so much for that, and when she found me it was an awesome experience! :)

  • Vicky Smith

    In 2000 I was 19 and got pregnant…my so was born at 32 weeks, survived but has a lot of learning disablities…at 15 he’s a handful but I adore him, 5 months after he was born I got pregnant again…and I weeped cause I was so young and could barely handle my first child. I don’t believe in abortion, I never have I’ve always known it was a life inside of me and I prayed to GOD to help me. I was scared I knew I should have been more responsible a laps in judgment on my part. GOD answered my prayers and I miscarried at 13 weeks. But to this day I’m torn, I wondered what my other son would have looked like. I remember asking the doctor if the baby had felt any pain and they lied to me and told me it was just a bunch of cells, they did an ultrasound and told me it was a boy, if it was just a bunch of cells how could they have known that. I got pregnant again 7 months later with my amazing daughter. And I’m torn because I’ll never know the one I lost but had he stayed I wouldn’t have the amazing child I have. But I still think about the baby boy I lost. Sorry I just wanted to share.

  • Norma Perez

    I am so sorry for your lost,But everything happens for a reason, The Lord has used you and your family to touch and change many people all around. Isn’t that what kinda happened to Mary, Jesus mom. I had 2 miss carriages and I understand you pain. But our Heavenly Father hasn’t forgotten your pain, he felt the pain just as you did, but he choose you and your family to bless others. Many blessings to you and your family.

  • Erin

    Have none of you ever tried a reverse image search? These pictures have been around since before 2013.

  • TaylorLaine

    19 weeks is very differentw then skmeone getting an abortion at 4 to 12 weeks. A womans choice in the path of her pregnancy is her choice. Get over it people. If you’re not jumping line to adopt the child it’s none of your concern. Prolife is just probirth. Prochoice doesn’t mean proabortion either, prochoice is believing a woman has rights to her body and any thing that may use her body.

    • Mary Lee

      Is it?

      (Hint: no. It is always the same human child)

      So, like, is a toddler less of a person than a 20 year old? Get out of here.

  • Donna

    For anyone seeking healing from loss of a child http://www.hopemommies.org.

  • VALID

    Just because you think the “child” looks fully formed is no way to assume it is. Would you assume a one-legged calf is fully formed? Or would you submit it to schooling for hopes for it’s furture? Because, of course, we know humans are more valuable than anything else on earth EVER.

    • Mary Lee

      What the hell? Your comment doesn’t even make any sense.

  • alixvic

    I was reading this in bed while my son was drinking his bottle and he looked at the picture and pointed to the screen and said ”Baby!”. If an 18 month old child can tell its a child and not a ”lump of cells”then theres something wrong. People need to start reconsidering their morals on abortions. Thank you for sharing your story and may god bless you and your family.

  • Selene

    I’d still have an abortion if I ended up pregnant

    • Mary Lee

      Get your tubes tied STAT

  • rebecca

    I had a my son Elijah at 19 weeks.I got to hold him until I got to the hospital and then they took him away.As I wanted to spend more time with my son the hospital would not let me.I wanted also his body to give my child a proper bareial.After being released from the hospital I requested to have him a bareial they told me that they cremated him with other babies that also did not make it.I was devistated and after all I been through, I should of had that right. I’m his mother and he is my son. It’s been 12 year ago and my heart still is broken and I miss my son so much.I have no pictures or anything and no where to go to spend time with him.It breaks my heart to see people say it wasn’t a baby .He was a baby and most of all my baby Who I loved and will always love.

  • Tara

    Out of fear I caved today and begged my dad to pick me up from my boyfriends house. He only came on one condition. And that was for me to abort. We made an appointment for tomorrow. I asjed god for guidance and now I see he’s given it. I will keep the baby. My dad will never speak to me again but whatever. Who needs conditional love?

    • MamaBear

      If there is a crisis pregnancy center near you, that would be a good place to look for help. Otherwise, most evangelical churches and all Catholic churches are pro-life and they might be able to guide you towards help. Sounds like at the very least, you will probably need a place to stay and medical care for you and your baby.
      You did not give your age, but you are being very brave. May God bless you and your baby.

  • Peris

    There is a myth that Sometimes the doctors and hospitals are paid by very powerful and rich people to acquire organs for “certain children”. It just a “myth” but you gotta wonder why they fight for death so fast instead of fighting for life. They are more quick to kill than to save. Why is it easier to kill than to save?. So you gotta wonder. You know what I am saying? Even if you never contemplated abortion, the doctors will throw it out there if there is any slight mishap, like they are waiting…. M just saying. If there is a chance of Down syndrome, or blindness or name it, it’s painful to deal with that all your life. So is the pain of loosing a child. If a child has come with some issues, you will have to deal with it whether alive or dead. Why not just choose life and deal with the situation when the child is alive. You will still deal with something.
    But I would want to hear a story of a doctor that had an abortion. They will do anything to save theirs. Or a rich person that choose abortion. It’s for the poor. Think for yourself before the doctor tell you what’s good for your soul.

  • September

    This is so touching my prayers goes to the family.. ….. I don’t talk about this because I don’t want it to ever harm my children.. … I love my boys and that is that…….. I was 19 when I was raped a few weeks latter I found out I was pregnant and for the sake of my baby I stayed with the man who raped me after I had my son I was not even healed before he pushed his self upon me…. and ended up pregnant again.. …… for anyone who knows me told me to abort both of them the first time it happens then the decline time never would of happend because I would of never stayed around the man who done this to me……… this might be true but when I went to the doctors and heard my first sons heart beat the thought never crossed my mind nor with my second son. I was also told why be with him after he did that to me the first time.. .. well because I did not want my son to grow up fatherless so I would rather be unhappy for life to make my sons life easy…. then when my youngest son was 4 months old he grows again and this man saved us well we ended up getting married and have a little girl together both of my boys don’t have no clue to anything about sperm donor they know the man I married is their father and he always will be . I am so blessed because I raised my self since I was 15 been through hell have three kids and a wonderful husband because I don’t believe in abortions……… so just know like little Walter bless his soul…… they all need a chance.. .. don’t abort when you can adopt if you don’t want him/her.. …….. to Walters family you are in are prayers may god bless you all and may you all be together again one day god bless you all

  • Dan Wild

    That’s not my idea of “perfect” but okay. It’s freaky that the kids are holding it :$

  • Christina Rodriguez

    I am 27 weeks now with a baby boy. I thought I was in labor Monday due to the amount of pain I was in. Still pregnant. This made me think of my first baby I lost at 13 weeks though. I’m sorry for your loss. ♡♡♡

  • chantay

    I was fortunate enough to make the six month mark praise the lord my heart g o es out to you pro life all the way!!!!#

  • Mom

    I too lost a baby at 5mths …when I asked what sex it was? , nurse told me not to be so morbid!
    Next my daughter was born at 8 mths, stillborn! I never got to see her or hold her!
    Does not matter ..in or out of the womb, they are our babies ! We would do anything for them!
    I have met many women who got rid of a blob and are so hurt and resentful for being conned and carry the grief of a lifetime!

  • Vivian Inboden Tracy

    I had a miscarriage. It never suits hurting. It has been 54 years. Still hurts

  • Tara Walters

    There are time when I think it could be appropriate. I myself had a very complicated pregnancy. Two days ago I went down to the clinic after finding out I was 7 weeks pregnant after believing myself sterile. I basically died on the table the last time. I have multiples that would lose their mother. They were from a donor so they would lose their only parent. Due to my previous issues the clinic refused me due to the fact that they are not a hospital and could not guarantee my safety if they were to proceed. I was advised to seek one at a hospital location. While I never believed in abortion before…once I seen a 2nd pink line that was all I could think about. No it’d not fair to the child. But potentially leaving behind 4 others? Is that ideal? And chances are I won’t carry full term either..which would be perfered 7 week abortion or leaving children parentless and the baby dying anyways? Not saying that will happen but a high risk pregnancy is almost guaranteed. How many are willing to take that chance if placed in my shoes?

  • Sarah Jarman-Watrous

    I think unless you’re in the situation, you’re not truly sure what is going to happen or what you would choose to do. I feel incredible sadness for women, myself included, who have had to make that decision regardless if it’s due to medical issues or other reasons. I think generally it’s assumed that the woman doesn’t love her child, is cruel or heartless.. that is not the case for me. I loved my baby and wanted her. She was very very sick, and it would have been more painful for her to enter this world than to leave it… she had at 10% survival in utero. She had the worst form of Spina bifida, and also had water on the brain. They were sure she would never walk, have bowel and bladder issues and the were unsure of the neurological damage that she would have had… I know I could not do what this woman did and deliver a stillborn baby. I know it would change me to my core. I think this is a hot topic, and people will be all over the spectrum. I know that people have deep feelings. I know that there maybe women who want to talk about it, but usually the general reaction is to keep silent. I will never give up my voice, and remain silent. I truly hope those who are in pain, are given peace, surrounded by love and life…

    As women, we are stronger if we remain together rather than tear each other apart. Hugs Ladies!!! Be kind and gentle to yourself and others….

    • MamaBear

      Recently, in the list of FB birthday greetings was one calling me “mom” that I did not give birth to. She has spina bifada, was born with water on the brain, bladder problems, never walked, and was not only in school (regular classes) with my kids, but was at my house so very much, she started calling me “mom,” and still does when she messages or calls me. I am so glad her real mom chose to have her.

      • Basset_Hound

        Years ago, when I was in my 20’s I knew a single mom. Her son had spina bifida. The family was told that if he survived, he would be severely retarded. In fact the dad took off because he didn’t want the responsibility of having a special needs son. When I knew the child, he was the star student in his sixth grade math class. I lost contact with them soon after that, so I have no idea whatever happened to him.

  • Cheryl Emmells-Carey

    God has another little angel in heaven. Walter was here on earth for just a very short
    time, but what a impact he has left behind. God will keep him and love him until you meet again. Treasure your three girls God Bless

  • Mary Walstra Horne

    No one Is pro-abortion. They’re pro-choice. I lost a child at 5 months gestation, and it was horribly traumatic. It is just as traumatic for women who need to abort in the 2nd trimester, a procedure that is typically done due to threats to the mother’s health or because the baby has deformities that are incompatible with life. Typicslly, these are couples who really wanted that child and are crushed by the need to make this decision. To call people facing such a decision “pro-abortion” is incredibly cruel and mean-hearted. Try a little empathy

    • Mary Lee

      Oh my God, you people are so ignorant I can’t even get over it.

      Why do you hate the word “abortion” so much? You believe it’s a “right”….there’s nothing wrong with it, you think.

      And boy have you been under a rock. There are a ton of self-admitted pro-aborts. Wake up.

  • brittany mathis

    Would still get an abortion if I ever got pregnant.

    • Mary Lee

      Get your tubes tied. Problem solved.

      • brittany mathis

        If doctors in the south weren’t so pressed about women becoming broodmares I would already have one. But they are scared I’d want to change my mind and become a breeder like most of the small minded moos around here. I’m 22 so I CANT.

        Now what you can do is pay for my tubal up front or shut up about what I do with MY body. Thanks.

        • Mary Lee

          Oh please. It’s pro-aborts like you who berate pregnancy with terms like “broodmare”…. Pregnancy is not a disease. It is the opposite, in fact. It is the sign of a healthy body.

          And you know the word “broodmare” isn’t the insult you think it is. The broodmare is always the strongest, most athletic, and most beautiful. The broodmares are the mothers of the greatest racehorses. But you’re 22, what do you know. You just buy all the pro-abortion lies Planned Parenthood and Hollywood feed you.

          • brittany mathis

            Lolol lies planned parenthood feeds you? I chose not to have kids and somehow it has something to do with PP. Funny cause I’ve never been to one.

            And no I got the term broodmare from my childfree groups who laugh at any woman who thinks childbearing makes them other than just another woman with a kid.

            And no I meant pronatalist. As is the culture of baby/child worship rampant in America. It’s disgusting.

            What do I know? That I’d never ruin my life by becoming a mom. And that’s a fact.

          • Mary Lee

            LOL OMG you are, like, SO MATURE! LOL! Children are stupid and gross! Pregnancy is gross! Biology is ICKY! I’m defensive about abortion and pregnancy because I’m too lazy and stupid to learn anything! LOL! LOL!

            You’re pathetic. I love that you pretend that PP isn’t your favorite place in the world. What a liar.

          • brittany mathis

            Poor delusional child. Maybe you’re schizophrenic and that’s why you think you know me? Idk. But it’s ok I get that you aren’t all right upstairs. I know opposing opinions can be scary but please try to calm down.

          • Mary Lee

            You’re an idiot. You’re probably the biggest idiot this board has seen since Mr. G./Gary.

          • brittany mathis

            I used to work with children btw. I’m certified in childcare :) so maybe if you’d like to get a real education I can help you out. But you have to keep taking your meds.

          • Mary Lee

            Yeah, right. Sure you did.

            I have two post-graduate degrees, which I obtained on merit Fellowships from two tippy top universities, so I’m good.

          • brittany mathis

            Well the way you act would never let anyone assume you’re educated hon.

          • Mary Lee

            The way *I* act? HA HA HA HA HA okay, Dumbledore.

          • brittany mathis

            Is that supposed to be an insult? Cause it’s not a very good one. And yes. I mean you say you have 2 degrees yet you act like you’re out here hustling just to try to take one course so it’s not very likely anyone would consider you to be highly educated. Especially since your fragile ego was shattered with one persons opinion. While I just laugh at any pro life person who thinks that their opinion is the only right one.

          • Mary Lee

            Hey, it’s Saturday night, sweetie pie. If you want to see my more eloquent arguments, you are free to click on my profile and read them. But you’ve shown that you have no intellect, that you’re a liar, that you’re incredibly naive, and so my patience is thin. Anyone who offers as their first comment something along the lines of “If I ever get pregnant, I am totally having an abortion,” that person is probably the lowest of the low. If I met you in real life, I’d probably feel really sorry for you, especially as I take my #7 with cheese from you at the drive-thru window.

            As I said before, GOOD LUCK. You really, really need it. You’re a piece of work.

          • brittany mathis

            It’s a Saturday night yet you’ve chosen to cry over my opinion lol. I haven’t lied about anything but if helps you sleep at night sure. And man. Well you can give a girl a degree but you can’t make her any less trashy. So sad. I pity your children. I hope they are at least mentally stable coming from a home like yours but you know what they say.

          • Mary Lee

            Yeah, I’m crying. Because I care what you think.

            Your username is telling. Either you’ve decided to use as your alter-ego a woman who committed suicide like a coward, or you are using your actual name, which is either just as stupid, or stupider.

            Have a nice life showing people to their tables!

          • brittany mathis

            Maybe you shouldn’t feel so threatened an opinion. And I’ll have more fun mentoring teens with my horrible opinions. Be careful. You’re speaking to the generation teaching the next ;)

          • brittany mathis

            Lol beautiful broodmare is an oxymoron. Pregnancy bellies stretched out vaginas (because childbirth actually does ruin the elasticity of the vagina) and the like is only a few of the things that make women ugly.

            Man proliars is a better name than prolifers and no wonder so many see why.

          • Mary Lee

            Well, first: Pregnancy IS beautiful.

            Second: You obviously know nothing about horses.

            Third: You obviously know nothing, period. Good luck in the world. You’re gonna need it. Yeesh.

          • Mary Lee

            Having gone through a crisis pregnancy, I can tell you that ….you know….your stomach doesn’t stay that way, right? Like, when I was at the doctor yesterday and the nurse commented on my flat tummy.

            What were you saying about education? You’re pathetic.

          • Basset_Hound

            Wow! What a degrading view of a normal functioning female body. If THIS is what it means to be “free-n-equal”, than I’d rather be a “broodmare” or “stupid moo” ANY DAMNED DAY

          • Mary Lee

            She’s hilarious. She thought I was using “Dumbledore” as an insult, when I was just being sarcastic. She doesn’t seem to understand irony. What a child.

  • Norma

    It is the woman’s choice, abortion must be a thing there has to be a choice. If I were ever to get pregnant for any reason and I was forced to keep the kid I don’t want that kid would f grow up being resented with a depressed and bitter mom. Would people rather hear that? No my next trip would be to the abortion doctor.

    • Mary Lee

      There has to be a choice to kill one’s own son or daughter? That is a horrifyingly sick belief.

  • Luv2trailride

    Has anybody heard about the group who takes old wedding dresses and makes them into white gowns for the babies that don’t get to come home? It’s incredible. It really touched my heart.

  • StandingGround

    This happened in our family. Our little grandbaby was born at 21 weeks and couldn’t survive outside the womb. Our baby was this tiny but perfectly formed. So sweet. My daughter and husband got to hold their baby. The hospital did take pictures and put her in a special hat and gown that someone had made for these tiny babies. We still miss her terribly. Her name was Lexie, like the Mom here. I will pray for this Mom & Dad because I know it still hurts.

  • Anna smith

    I had my baby at 24 weeks. They wouldn’t let me see the baby. They told me it was better if I didn’t. They drugged me with morphine so I “wouldn’t remember” I have never gotten over it. It was 6 years ago.

  • Elizabeth

    I lost my baby when I was only 4 weeks into my pregnancy. I had just found out a day earlier I was pregnant. It was so heartbreaking. My heart breaks for all the mothers and fathers out there who lost there beloved children. The father and I decided to name our little angel Drew Tayler. ❤

  • Cathi J

    I delivered my twin boys at 5 1/2 months. They were perfect down to their eyelashes. They were active until delivery and we’re stillborn. They bathed them, dress them, wrapped them in a blanket then gave them to me so we all could say goodbye. I can’t begin to imagine not being able to say goodbye to them at the hospital and again at the funeral home.

  • Breanna M Gonzalez

    I have had an abortion be for in my life , fresh out of high school about to start collage n my mom said it was best for me so i can finish school so i did. When my child came out i cried n withdrew into my self for moths i couldnt eat or talk all i did was cry for almost a yr . A few yrs later i became pregnant w my now 5 yr old child the father left me cuz i chose to have her but how could he understand what i felt or went through . im 27 just got over my abortion last yr it took me 9 yrs to get over it , most people dont realize that when u do something like that apart of your soul dies.
    But i also think that if u must do it understand what u are giving up .

  • shell

    I had a miscarriage at 19 weeks my lil boy looked just like him babies r so special thnk u for sharing your story

  • Dee

    Heartbreaking , So sorry for your loss. But please keep these photos of Walter going. I just know you are gonna save so many lives. Sad they are to look at, but made me realize I had no clue . He is just not cells and tissue. How many women have been lied to. Pictures are worth thousand words. God bless your family, you have already been a blessing to others.

  • DiannaJesse RedfernHimes

    For the women on here speaking of terminating. It makes my heart ache. I would do anything to be able to have a baby. You don’t know the gift you have been given. It makes me sad for you to decide only after seeing this story. It should never even been a consideration.

  • Katie Ferraro

    I am totally against abortion I think that abortion should be illegal unless you have gotten raped then I think that is a different story if you are willing to have unprotected sex then you are willing to have the baby I am so glad when I read this story that the people in this story who were thinking about having an abortion changed their minds after hearing what happened how can you be so cruel to take a precious little human bean’s life who has done nothing wrong it just sickens me

  • jessica soto

    I had my first baby boy at 5mths also he was stillborn it makes 13 yrs now he’s been gone my baby looked just like urs

  • Nolene Moodley

    I lost my baby at 6 months last year October ….my whole life just turned up side down..

  • olivia

    I gave birth to our first at 21 1/2 weeks he lived 8 minutes I got a death certificate but they handed me an embryo paper because in the state of maine he wasn’t a baby yet. We fought to get birth certificate to go with death certificate we got it. BUt he was a little bigger then this one. I was able to be in labor and delivery and they took pictures and so did we they lost the pics they took we still have ours. remember him.

  • Teresa McAuliffe Halvorson

    I had a miscarriage at 18 weeks. I was told he would have been a boy. He was a boy, not would have been. I did not get to hold or see him, and no remains were given. I must have had some sort of break as I have only very spotty memories of this time in my life. Everyone tells me not to force myself to find the memories, that my brain is protecting me from hurt. But it bothers me more not to remember mourning, or what was said or done. I feel for all of you that have gone through this. Bless us and those sweet little souls.

  • Nolene Moodley

    I had my 2nd miscarriage in the same year …when I carried him through 6 month’s ..until I lost him…first few month’s I had a sickness hyperememis ..we were so excited after everything ….after losing him my whole world shattered…. Life was so unfair towards me…he was supposed to be born 2 Feb” on my birthday… Not a day I don’t think of him…up till this day I still cry because I love him so much …and I just want him back…. Very angry at myself ….wish i could turn the clock around… Sad..

  • L brunette

    I had my daughter at 26 weeks and it was a struggle for her and for me…doctors gave her 72 hrs to live she was my miracle baby and thank god everyday for her…it’s so sad to hear people refer to them as blobs and just cells..the doctors told us we wouldn’t hear her cry but she gave out loud squeak to let me know she was there…I am so sorry for your loss to any one that has lost a child and am great full for people being educated that they are human, they are tiny people they are alive.

  • msronii

    I take offense to the article referring to people being, “pro-abortion.” Does that even exist? I think the term you were lookin for is, “pro-choice.”

    • Mary Lee

      Yes. It does exist. Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti, Peter Singer, Mary Elizabeth Williams, Tucker Max, people who show up at abortion rallies with “I love abortion” t-shirts. Your movement is predicated on lies and your language is dishonest. You hide behind euphemisms.

  • donnie

    my gf was born at 24 weeks. She is now 23 years old and aside from some scars from the birth she is alive and well and saving lives daily as a firefighter/emt. We found out last week she is 7 weeks pregnant. During birth the doctor told her mother to be prepared for her to not make it.

    Almost 24 years later and the baby that wasn’t supposed to survive is working on bringing her own baby into the world.

  • slamnsam89

    I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks an u can see the hands, toes ,eyes an head I don’t believe in abortions many girls like myself struggle to have a good pregnancy I have poly cystic ovarian syndrome and other women just throw away a pregnancy like its nothing

  • Pro Choice

    Will everyone leave abortion alone?? Honestly. Sorry if being saddled with a kid for the rest of our lives because of a condom breaking or birth control fail is not something we want to do. Pregnancy isn’t a punishment for sex and shouldn’t be treated as one. If I was pregnant right now I wouldn’t think twice about getting the fetus out of my body. Simply put, if people don’t want to carry a baby for 9 months then you shouldn’t force them. So what if the bible thumpers think its murder? It’s not their decision. Without legal abortion, people would just do it but in more unsafe condition. Then not only would be killing 1 insignificent life but also at risk of killing the person involved as well.

    • Mary Lee

      Your comment is disgusting. And yet, honest. It shows how ugly pro-abortion philosophy is.

  • melissa

    I miscarried also at 5 months. I had a little baby boy. His name was brantly, he was the one thing that made me smile everyday. Until july 2014 I found out I miscarried and I broke even more i was only 17 back then and everyone told me that its a good thing to do. Because the dad left and and was going to be a single teen mom if I didnt miscarry I woulnt be as happy I am now.

  • webtraveler2

    I don’t get why pro-lifers think that pro-CHOICE people think a fetus is a “blob of cells”. We KNOW it’s a forming baby. We also know it’s not a “easy” decision by ANY means. But sometimes, abortion is the BEST choice for some people. If you don’t want one, then don’t get one. But don’t make that decision for everyone else.

    • Mary Lee

      So might makes right, then? That’s sick. That’s bullying. That’s straight up abuse. Our unborn babies deserve to live, whether they are “convenient” or not.

    • Basset_Hound

      If you don’t like child abuse, then don’t beat your kid.

      If you don’t like rape, don’t do it.

      And please, spare us about how it’s “not an easy decision”. When is a long face a moral disinfectant?

      • Mary Lee

        They actually believe we simply “don’t like” abortion. They do not understand that we see it as a violent abuse of power over the defenseless and beautiful unborn babies, a crime against an entire class of humans. Like the abolitionists just “didn’t like” slavery; not that they saw it as a crime against an entire class of humans.

        I think cosmetic surgery is vain and sort of silly. I would never support legislation that prevents someone from choosing cosmetic surgery…. In that case, it really is about her (or his) body….nobody dies. Maybe I will get a facelift someday too, who knows. If someone said “then you’re pro-cosmetic surgery?” I would say yes, even if I think it’s overused.

        Abortion kills someone. And it kills that baby person in a violent way.

        But, oh, we just “don’t like” it. That’s what it is.

        • Basset_Hound

          Just like they “actually believe” we see sex as only for making babies, and that we want to punish women for enjoying it. I’m not one of those “all contraception is evil types”. In fact I’ve used oral contraceptives and had my tubes tied (and caught holy hell from the hardliners on this site when I’ve admitted to it). I’ve also pointed out that, even though I’ve been through menopause hubby and I are very “active” in that regard. However, if my contraceptive had failed, I was astute to realize I had no right to make a child pay with his life for my pleasure or convenience.

  • webtraveler2

    For all of you pro-lifers out here:

    Pregnancy begins at implantation. Human life has to begin with conception, but conception is not the same thing as pregnancy, the latter of which reason, science, and medical evidence agree begins when a fertilized egg successfully implants in the uterus and develops into a healthy embryo. Fertilized eggs take between six to 12 days to implant in the uterine lining. There simply is no pregnancy until this happens, which is why any method that prevents fertilization or implantation can not cause an abortion. A large share of fertilized eggs never successfully implant to establish a pregnancy: Between 50 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs never successfully implant and end in spontaneous miscarriage (and before a woman even knows she is pregnant) because of insufficient hormone levels or an non-viable egg or for some other reason.

    • webtraveler2

      P.s. People who are Pro-Choice know that it’s a baby and not some blob of tissue. We’re not stupid. And Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion!

      • Mary Lee

        Lies, all of it. Read a biology book.

        And if abortion is a fundamental “right” and there is nothing wrong with it, why are you pro-aborts so squirmy about the word? “Choice” is a euphemism. Define your terms and stop hiding behind nonsensical watchwords like “reproductive justice”…..because pureeing dismemebering your son or daughter and throwing their little bodies in the GARBAGE is just the epitome of “justice,” right?

  • aprilb85

    I love this story its a beautiful blessing i myself was not allowed to see my baby whom passed when i was 4 1/2 mnths

    • webtraveler2

      I’m sorry you weren’t given that chance. I’m sorry for your loss.

  • Savana Gandy

    Abortions after 2 months (8 weeks) are illegal, so i don’t really see what type of “debate” this article is changing. Very sad though.

    • webtraveler2

      Wrong. Timing on abortions vary state by state. Many women don’t even know they are pregnant until they are 4-6 wks along. Most women who abort do so between 8-12 weeks. The article itself brings up abortion.

    • Mary Lee

      Wrong. What planet are you living on? Abortion is legal during all 9 months (see Doe vs. Bolton).

  • Mona Hernandez

    21 years ago, on March 11th, I had a miscarriage at 5mo, with my first pregnancy. It was a boy also, I named him Christopher Alan. Almost a year later, miraculously, my beautiful daughter Jenypher Crystene was born at 32wks. I still get very emotional this time of year. If it weren’t for her, I would probably not even be here. She is my life, and my best friend.

  • Trista

    I lost my baby in December 2013. I was nine months along. He was fully formed and perfect. It hurts to see stuff like this because I know how it feels.

  • KD

    We lost twins at 16 weeks and were blessed to have wonderful doctors who treated our girls as the babies they were! They were blessed, given certificates of life (since they were not the 20 weeks the state required to consider them a baby). It breaks my heart to know that so many were not even afforded the dignity when losing their precious babies. Even at 16 weeks, our girls were indeed babies!

  • pumpkinpjays

    I’ve worked in reproductive healthcare for 20 years in many states in the U.S. I have never heard the products of a pregnancy called a “clump of cells”, “tissue”, or “just a fetus”. Regardless of how far along it is, the embryo/fetus is always treated with respect, and the woman is treated with compassion.

    • Mary Lee

      What a crock.

      And there is NOTHING “reproductive” about pureeing or dismembering your son or daughter.

      “Might makes right” is the crux of all pro-abortion “arguments.”

      • pumpkinpjays

        What are your credentials? Please share: I love learning from my colleagues!

  • pumpkinpjays

    To imply that anybody is “pro-abortion” is asinine; people think they know what they’re talking about, and they don’t. Time and again, I have seen people make decisions none of us could fathom if we’re not there ourselves. What I might do (I stress MIGHT) could be a poor decision for somebody else. A refuse to tell a woman/a couple/a family what is best for them; I trust people to make their own decisions.

    • Mary Lee

      Oh please. Abortion advocates have ADMITTED to being pro-abortion…..Jessica Valenti, Amanda Marcotte, Peter Singer……

      • Basset_Hound

        Add Carolyn Hax, who back in March 1993 penned an article “No Birth No Pangs” where she stated that there was a whole generation of women (including herself) who owed their lifestyles to the convenience of legal abortion, a lifestyle that allows room for irresponsibility.

        • Mary Lee

          But nobody is pro-abortion! We’re pro-CHOICE! choice choice choice choice choice *zombie walk*

          • Basset_Hound

            Except they don’t want us to have the CHOICE of sending our kids to the schools WE want.
            They don’t want companies to have the CHOICE of benefits they offer their employees.
            They don’t want restaurant owners to have the CHOICE as to whether or not they’ll allow their customers to smoke.
            If some had their way, we wouldn’t have the CHOICE of what kind of car we drive or what kind of soft drinks we consume.

            But by cracky, we should have the CHOICE to kill our babies, because our children are chattel and property.

          • Mary Lee

            What if I want to smoke while I’m pregnant? …What’s that? It would be bad for “the baby,” you say? The what? It’s a baby now? I’m so confused. What do you mean? It’s my body. I want to drink alcohol and smoke and eat sushi, because it’s my body, right?

            I really think that most of the people who support abortion (who are not members of PP or NARAL) are completely ignorant about what abortion is and does and looks like. They don’t want to know.

      • pumpkinpjays

        You sound ridiculous.

  • The first part of the last sentence of the first paragraph, “He lived only moments…” is not accurate. Walter lived for nineteen weeks. LAN should know better.

  • Lisa Jones

    I lost MY Daughter this past October. I was 20 weeks and the
    Dr told me I could not see her. She did not come out intact. I am so heart broken still! I just wish I could have held my sweet baby girl. I miss her and I wish I could have loved on her for just a LIL while!

  • Jennifer Maloney

    I was 13 weeks when I lost my baby, and due to all of the gender predictors I believe in my heart it was a boy, but when I called the er 2 weeks later to try and get him so I could burry him they said they still had to do more testing. Same thing every week for 2 months when they finally told me they threw the remains out. I was devastated. The worst part is that I still don’t know any of the test results and its been 4 years. Yea I was blessed a year later with a healthy baby boy who was born at 36 weeks weighing 4lbs 5oz. And when I’m sad I can feel his love but what the doctors do is WRONG!!!!!!!!

  • Staci

    I had my daughter at 23 weeks ( not sure about today , but 24 yrs ago that was a legal abortion in the state of Florida ) There were many ups and downs as well as making her funeral arrangements 3 times. She weighed in at 1 pound at birth and went under a pound weeks to follow. Today she is a normal , healthy, bright and intelligent adult.

    Sorry for your loss and unfortunate after care.
    God bless

  • Samalia Poteete

    This…is a bunch of pro life bullshit

    • Mary Lee

      No such thing. The only “bullshit” is every single belief and statement that comes from thepro-abortion community.

      The fact that this story actually **ANGERS** you says far more about you than any pro-lifer.

  • Laken

    I think abortion should only be there for people who have been raped. I was raped by my father and I got an abortion shortly after getting pregnant because I couldn’t imagine keeping it, It made me feel so disgusting inside out to even think of having his baby. Also I was only 16 years old and clearly not ready for a child, especially one that was forced upon me.

  • jackie

    I do not know what it is like or could ever imagine the pain and heart ache that comes along with having a miscarriage, I have a 4 year old son, but I did have my scares at his 5 month ultrasound they told me he had a tumor on his brain. I of course did the one thing they tell pregnant mothers not to do I went home and googled it. Resulting in absolute terror and worry and tears for about 2 months. They had told me that the type he had normally go away, and thankfully come his 7 month scan it was gone. But the day he was born was the scariest. I am a very small girl and he was a very large baby. It was a tough labor after 2 hrs or pushing he made his appearance only he wasn’t breathing….. he was grey and still, his father told me he saw his whole world begin and end in a split second. By the grace of God he came threw and let out a loud cry!. Again I do not and could not even begin to imagine the pain you have had to endure of a miscarriage but in a sense I have experienced the scare and the worry of losing the most precious God could bless any car if parent with. God bless to you and your family!

  • amber

    It really shouldn’t be legal to abort babies because is you read row vs wade you will see that when they passed the bill it was only due to lack of knowledge of when life begins! It is now recognized by the scientific community that life begins at conception, that’s what they teach at school and that’s the most popular opinion. therefore the bill should be void. Thank you for sharing and I wish you all the best

  • GregBeth1015

    My husband and I miscarried twins at 5 months; they were a bit smaller than dear Walter. We also took pictures. In retrospect, I am SO glad we took pictures… While these tiny babies might not be perfect and beautiful to the average person, they were that and more to us. Precious angels. I feel so very bad for those of you who didn’t get to see or hold your babies!! That’s not fair!! We were blessed to deliver in a religious hospital where the nurses were FANTASTIC and a Chaplain was on staff at all times… AND a local women’s auxiliary made outfits and rosaries and put them in a beautiful memory box. Then the nurses, somehow, were able to, miraculously, take footprints and handprints too!! Just writing this, I am still thanking God we just happened to end up at such a loving place.

  • J Michaelson

    PURE UNADULTERATED BOVINE FECES!

    • Mary Lee

      What? That unborn babies are human beings? That Walter’s death moved someone to consider that the child she is carrying deserves to live, and not slaughtered? Tell me. What BS?

  • Laura D’Onofrio

    I am an artist, and I created a painting that is meant to help those who have lost a little child. I hope it will help you too <3
    http://lauradonofrio.com/portfolio/the-most-precious/

  • Corinne47

    Abortions are only allowed in the first trimester… which is no where near 20 weeks… I’m so so so sorry about your son, but that’s no reason to use misinformation to try to pass a law or tell others what to do. Every situation is different. Everyone has the right to choose what they need to do. You made the right choice for you and I respect that. If I didn’t have an abortion though, my son and I both would have died shortly after. Please remember, everyone has to make the best decision for their own family.

    • Mary Lee

      Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Every single sentence you’ve said is wrong. Doe vs. Bolton allowed abortion through all 9 months of pregnancy. A woman can abort her child for any reason, because the “health” definition is incredibly broad (it includes not only “physical” health, but “psychological,” “emotional,” “financial,” and “social”).

      These are human babies from the moment they are conceived. There is NO right to abortion. It does not exist, no matter what the legal system says. (There is no right to own slaves, either, but the Supreme Court once said owning slaves was a right……OOPS). Abortion kills a human child. Educate yourself.

  • Elizabeth Petrea Hamilton

    I miscarried my first child at 2 1/2 months and i was devastated. I can not imagine how someone can decide to terminate just because they are not ready for a baby. i wasnt either but i would give anything in the world to have my child. I got by only on the knowing i would see my child again someday. I became pregnant again almost automatically(dr says due to the miscarriage affecting my hormones) and had a daughter then due to health reasons had to stop there.

  • Augusta Stone

    In 2011 I lost twin boys at 19 weeks 5 days. They lived 45 minutes each even tho they put the wrong times on their death certificates. I held them and i loved them. They where not clumps of cells or blobs of tissue. They moved. Attempted to breathe on their own. Life begins at conception not anytime after.

  • Kimberly

    I will never understand the desire to abort a pregnancy, a baby. There are so many other options out there other then abortion. Some women would give anything to be a mother & others just throw that opportunity away. I