timeline-socialjustice-v21

My coming-out story

Mom, Dad, I’m pro-life.

The day I “outed” myself to my ultra-liberal family, I was terrified. These are the people who basically tried to bully me into aborting my son (aka, their grandson) back in 2011. Lord knows I love them, but I was seriously considering taking this to the grave.

You’ve got to understand that I’ve always been the person in my family to keep my opinions to myself. Thank goodness I didn’t do that when I found out I was pregnant at 17 years old.

Sierra and her husband
Sierra and her husband.

I can date back several family issues that came up where I would nod my head and go to my room to keep from saying what I thought. By that time, my thoughts sounded like screams, and my ears would burn.

It’s very interesting to me that I’ve done this, because my parents have always encouraged my brother and me to speak our minds. And to be fair, sometimes I did. I was in the GSA in high school. I helped lead a peace rally. But should I go against my family’s beliefs?

I know this spiritual transformation I’ve been going through might look completely foreign to members of my family, but really it shouldn’t. They drove me to church, dropped me off, and then picked me up. I loved church. I’ve always loved God. I’ve always loved the messages of Jesus Christ.

Now, at 19, I am taking these things more seriously and trying to live like a Christian in every aspect of my life. I’ve noticed the gifts God has given me that I’ve stuffed down for so long. I have a voice. I’ve always used this voice in music, and my parents were always blown away by my sometimes very dark, deep lyrics.

At some point, your ears are burning too much that you just POP! Well, now I use my voice.

They like to think this is an “early 20s phase” and that I believe that abortion is wrong only because I’m a Christian. Oh, also something about me living in Texas.

Sorry to break the news, folks. I’m pro-life for many, many reasons. Yes, I do believe that the Bible is clear about this issue. But for me, I just have a hard time ignoring the scientific facts. I have a hard time believing that the testimonies of people who have worked in the abortion industry are “fake.” I know that those pictures of aborted children aren’t Photoshopped. I know countless women who regret their abortions. My mother-in-law hung out with Norma McCorvey, aka Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade. Norma, who helped make abortion legal, is now pro-life!

I mean, come on, guys. I have yet to meet someone who has made the switch from pro-life to pro-choice and has medical evidence to back up his or her claim.

I know you think that it’s rude to be in people’s business, because everyone had his or her private reasons for aborting his or her child. I get it. But with that same logic, if I see a little girl being punched by a guy on the street, I shouldn’t call 911 or somehow intervene. I mean, he must have his own private reason for abusing her, right?

Sierra's son, James
Sierra’s son, James

You’ve taught me to stand up for injustice. Equality for all. Well, this is exactly what I’m doing! This is global genocide! I haven’t even covered half of the horrible things about the abortion industry.

As I told my parents I was pro-life, I realized that I’m done trying to not step on toes. Every day children are dying from legal and illegal abortions in countries all over the world. I’m a Christian pro-life warrior, which means I reach out with love and knowledge to people.

And I can’t tell you how awesome it is to have a young mom deliver her child and thank me for giving the message of life. So if you are reading this and have a similar situation, come out! Be proud to be on the side of life! Don’t be afraid to talk to women and men about this very final choice they are making. We are spreading the message of life, and it’s working!

Come out, come out, wherever you are!

P.S. If anyone is offended by my using the term “outing” because you think it only applies to LGBTQ, you might want to remember that “outing” yourself means embracing your identity. =)

  • Pingback: My coming-out story | Foundation Life

  • Hostem Rei Publicae

    God bless. I wouldn’t talk to them ever.

    • Child of God

      Hostem,
      Is that what Jesus would do? Jesus loves them no matter what they believe.

  • Marauder

    I’m bisexual and I have no issue with your use of the term “outing.” :) It’s sad that your parents can’t understand why you’re pro-life; even if you don’t agree with another person’s beliefs, you can still understand why they think that way. Add the fact that you love the son they urged you to abort and it’s like, DUH, of course you have reasons to be pro-life. Maybe they don’t want to understand because then they’d have to deal with the fact that they tried to make you abort your son, and they don’t want to make that connection?

    • Heather

      I think the point of her writing a disclaimer of using “outing” is because homosexuality is wrong the same as abortion. We should protect marriage/sex between one man and one woman the way God made it to be, only in that way is it right and beautiful.

      • sierra

        Uhm…nope that’s not why I posted the disclaimer. I just know that some pro choices would think that I was using that wrong because I’m straight. I guess you missed the part above where I said I was in the GSA. My feelings are if an LGBTQ couple adopts a child that would have been aborted or has been in foster care forever, more power to them. I may not agree with their actions but I give them love. Just like I am loving towards clinic workers. There are a lot of LGBTQ pro lifers who are in hiding and I encourage them to come out in their pro life beliefs. I really am trying to live a Christ like example. But this isn’t the point of my post at all. Children are dying and so i think putting aside differences would do this movement some good. :)

        • Andrea

          Thanks for clarifying Sierra. I got what you meant. good to make it clear to everyone. And I agree with you that abortion is the bigger issue. Babies are being torn limb from limb and few seem to care.

        • AlkalineBill

          I never participated in the anti-abortion protest because I didn’t like the approach. I would love to see us resume our campaign and use signs such as: “God loves you and will help you with your baby” “Humble yourself under God’s mighty hand and He will see you through your pregnancy” I am sure there are a lot of people out there smarter than I am that can do better signs, but you get the idea. Let’s start a new pro-life approach at clinics.
          GOD IS LOVE!

          • Jesi Langdale

            Check out Save the Storks! They’ve got a mercedes benz sonogram bus!

          • Kajal Deepak

            does God change diapers and provide child care so a woman can continue college or keep her job?
            Or…are you thinking…hey, just go prostitute. That’s the way that God gave you to feed yourself in absence of an education and a job.
            Would be great if you can clarify exactly how God will see her through her pregnancy….oh, wait….who will help her AFTER the pregnancy is over?

          • AlkalineBill

            You have to be a born again believer and have put your trust-faith in God to understand. I have been down to nothing and he has always provided for me and my family. I have kicked and screamed and gotten mad a few times, but He has always seen me through. Philippians 4:19, But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

        • Diana

          So true, kiddo. I also knew what you meant in the first place, though. Glad you are in GSA.

        • wyllow

          How can you live by the Bible and condone children being raised by sodomites?

    • Jesi Langdale

      “even if you don’t agree with another person’s beliefs, you can still understand why they think that way”

      I don’t think that’s true, this is another way of making the abortion issue an issue of ‘preferences’ instead of a serious human right’s dilemma.

      “When pro-life advocates claim that elective abortion unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being, they aren’t saying they dislike abortion. They are saying it’s objectively wrong, regardless of how one feels about it. Notice what’s going on here. The pro-life advocate makes a moral claim that he believes is objectively true—namely, that elective abortion unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. The abortion-choice advocate responds by changing that objective truth claim into a subjective one about likes and dislikes, as if the pro-lifer were talking about a mere preference. But this misses the point entirely. As Francis J. Beckwith points out, pro-life advocates don’t oppose abortion because they find it distasteful; they oppose it because it violates rational moral principles.”

  • Sierra

    I will always love my family! Plus I’d miss out on a chance for conversion! My parents have their reasons for being pro choice but I definately think the pressure to abort has had them feeling guilty. I mean look at that cute face? How could you not love that face? They did come around after the initial shock of me having a baby wore off…took awhile but I’m grateful. Doesn’t mean I’ll stop being me! :)

    • simplythursday

      Yeah! Similar situation! We told my now MIL that we were pregnant when I was 17 (almost 18) and my husband is exactly a year younger than me! I had finished HS and my husband dropped out to take up a trade. His mother said I would ruin her son’s life! That I really needed to consider my options. I should get an abortion! She refused to talk to me for almost 2 years. 4 years later, we are married, have 2 kids, and another on the way in November. And my husband has a very rewarding position that he enjoys. Our life is far from over, or ruined, is just beginning! And we are embracing each other, and our family, and loving life!

      • http://eastsidehunky.wordpress.com/ EastSideHunky

        You did the right thing, a very tough thing to do at that young, immature age. Yet you showed more wisdom than your selfish, pro-death MIL. God bless you and your hubbie and growing family. Maybe your MIL will repent one day, who knows, but she can’t say she did not know…

      • Jesi Langdale

        <3 so happy you listened to the truth!

      • Kajal Deepak

        It’s great that you were able to exercise your CHOICE about what happens to your body. Every woman should have the right to decide whether or not her body will be used for gestation. Or anything else. At any time.

  • Anonymous Queer

    Dear Sierra,

    You say you’ve never met some one who has “made the switch from pro-life to pro-choice”. Well, you can no longer claim that, because now you have!

    I was raised in a very conservative, fundamentalist Christian household. For a good portion of my growing-up years, I firmly believed that abortion was murder. In fact, up until my college years, I was a member of Rock for Life (I still have some reeeeeally ancient RFL merch tucked away somewhere from when I used to table shows for them – anyone else out there remember the “I Survived” cuff bracelet?), and I even prayed outside of the local abortion clinic in an attempt to “reach out” what you would refer to as “abortion-minded women.”

    It is something I regret with every fiber of my being. If I could, I would find every woman I yelled at, every woman I begged to “spare her baby,” and I would beg her forgiveness for the emotional harm I caused her, because, in the words of some one I am sure you are familiar with, I knew not what I did.

    Sure, I could go on about the medical facts that caused me to change my mind (no, really, I could – I’m medically trained!), and how many of the “facts” spouted by pro-lifers are nothing more than junk science and outright lies, but, in the end, the medicine is not what is matters. What matters is that people have the fundamental right to decide how they want their body to be used. Just as we don’t force people to donate organs against their will even if it means a sick person will die, we cannot and should not force pregnant people to use their uterus against their will. (Just to assure you, I also firmly believe that no one should be forced or pressured into abortion either – that is just as despicable as forcing or pressuring against abortion. To me, being pro-choice means supporting WHATEVER option a pregnant person makes, even if it’s not a choice you agree with, or one you would make for yourself. This means that, along with abortion, you also support the choice to continue the pregnancy and parent, or to make an adoption plan.)

    To put a more personal face on it, I am a survivor of sexual assault. In fact, I was impregnated as a result of that sexual assault. And, while I chose to both carry and parent my child, I will forever be thankful that the choice to abort was available to me. When I think about a hypothetical in which that option wasn’t available, in which I was forced to remain pregnant, I literally start to panic. It’s the same panic I feel when I think about my rape.

    So, there you go. You can never again say you’ve not met some one who has “switched sides.”

    • Sierra

      First off I’m so sorry that you were violated that way. I wish that on no one. I’m actually very curious about this medical evidence you have so really, please share if you feel up to it. I never said I didn’t know ANYONE who has switched sides. I meant I haven’t met anyone who has who has switched sides with medical evidence to back up their claim. Having seen the graphic ending results of an abortion, I can’t deny that it’s a growing human being. To me, I don’t think we can respect any right when we ignore the most basic right of all. Life. again I am truly sorry this happened to you. And I recognize that the thought of illegal abortion is a trigger. I don’t want to trigger you any farther and i’m asking anyone else who comments under her post to not do the same unless you say otherwise.

      • Anonymous Queer

        Hi there, Sierra,

        Thank you very much for your consideration. I’m okay to talk about the general circumstances of my son’s conception. I’ve made peace with it for the most part, and if I know I am going to be talking about it, I can store up some extra spoons for any heavy moments. So, if anyone has any (respectful) questions, please feel free to ask them. But, while I am willing to engage in open dialogue, please understand that this is an emotional topic for me, and it’s not a “cop-out” if I say, “I’m not going to answer that right now.” It may just be a bad day.

        Now, that being said…

        I have also seen the “results” of an abortion (I’m assuming you mean pictures of aborted fetuses), and while they may look grisly to the outside observer, we don’t base the legitimacy of medical procedures on how they look. I mean, have you ever seen open heart surgery? Removal of a subdural hematoma? Surgery is, by its very nature, a gruesome and bloody undertaking.

        So what what medical facts (besides the way an abortion looks) would you like to know? Or were you more looking for the medical facts on which I base my pro-choice stance?

        • sierra

          All surgery is bloody. But these are our innocent fellow human beings being ripped apart and violently sucked into jars. The difference between a heart surgery and an abortion is that a heart surgeon isn’t trying to stop the heart. That doctor is doing everything he can to save the patients life and I’m pretty sure killing them is counter productive. This is a living, growing human being just like the patient of heart surgery and they deserve protection. I’m asking for medical evidence that supports your pro choice stance. I’m not in school for this…yet but my basic biology text book says life begins at conception. And I went to a very hippy liberal high school.

        • Elise77

          You seriously see no difference between an open heart surgery and a dismemberment of an entire human being?

          I’ve seen a Cirque du Soliel act that resembles a tangle of human limbs, and I’ve seen a pile of dead bodies from the Holocaust or from the Darfur conflict that also resembles a tangle of human limbs. At a passing glance, they may bear a slight resemblance to each other, but it’s really not about what they look like at a distance. It’s about what they in fact ARE. One IS a circus act that (presumably) harmed no one, and one IS a pile of murdered human beings. Upon close inspection, the difference is unmistakeable.
          Consequently, watching Cirque du Soliel causes me no emotional distress, while looking at images of piles of murdered human beings makes my heart cry.

          To some, an open-heart surgery and an abortion may both “look” gruesome, but it’s not about what they “look” like. It’s about what they in fact ARE. One IS a single body part, being made to function as it should. The other IS an entire living human being that has been brutally killed.
          Consequently, the sight of heart surgery causes me zero emotional distress. In fact, it’s fascinating to me. The point of surgery, after all, is to make something function as it should. The point of abortion, on the other hand, is to deliberately and brutally destroy an actual, complete living human being. The sight of a butchered baby affects me greatly.

        • ficklemookie

          I, too, would be very interested in the medical information that your pro-choice decision is based off of as well as the junk science that others use to defend being pro-life. I’ve always been pro-life but I’ve bounced back and forth between how I actually feel about the legality of abortion. Since you are in this field.. I would very much like to hear about your knowledge. Thank you.

        • tkhk3746

          So in otherwards you have no facts. Comparing a human life to a “Subdural Hematoma” is pathetically ignorant.

          This conversation doesn’t surprise me with its “political correctness ad nauseum but then we are talking about liberals. There’s still a right and a wrong. All people will never agree…
          deal with it. It’s part of life.

          • Anonymous Queer

            I actually provided quite a few scientific studies below if you would like to look.

        • MKE414

          Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions. Just curious if you are then pro-life once the fetus/baby reaches 21 weeks because the earliest fetus/baby to survive after birth was 21 weeks? Also, you feel that it’s wrong to force someone to carry a fetus to birth, but isn’t it also wrong to force someone to die?

    • Little

      “Sure, I could go on about the medical facts that caused me to change my
      mind (no, really, I could – I’m medically trained!), and how many of the
      “facts” spouted by pro-lifers are nothing more than junk science and
      outright lies, but, in the end, the medicine is not what is matters.”

      Interesting. Many doctors, nurses, and medical workers in the abortion field have quit and they are medically trained too.

      Still waiting on that junk science of yours.

      • Guest

        I’m the single parent of a 5-year-old. Sorry I’ve not been back. Sooner. Patience, please.

      • Anonymous Queer

        I’m the single parent of a very active 5-year-old child. Sorry I’ve not been back sooner. I am working on a response, and I want to make sure I properly cite all my facts. Patience, please.

    • Anonymous Queer

      Hi, all.

      Sorry it’s taken me a couple days to get back here. I will attempt to answer everyone – if I leave anyone out, please let me know! Also, if there is a number in parentheses after a sentence, it means there’s a footnote – go to the end and check it out!

      I just want to point out before I dive in that not even the pro-life position can be fully supported by science. You say a fetus is alive, and therefore it is wrong to kill it. Yes, a fetus is alive. However, just because something is alive does not mean it automatically gets “protections.” No medical standpoint can justify, explain, or support that – only a moral or legal one can. For example, right now as I type this, the US is conducting drone strikes in the Middle East in the name of “national security” and “fighting This is legal, and some would argue moral. terrorism.” Unfortunately, as happens in war, civilians are killed in these strikes. It’s also legal (and some would argue moral) to kill those who have been convicted of heinous crimes via the death penalty and to kill in self-defense.

      And, personally, I find nothing moral about forcing, either through laws, lies, or shame, a person to carry a pregnancy they don’t want or are not prepared for. And, while a fetus feels nothing emotionally or physically during an abortion (as they do not feel pain before 28 weeks), the person carrying it sure does.(1) I am all too familiar with these feelings – fear, anger, panic, confusion. And, as I said before, while I eventually chose to both carry and parent my child, that was my CHOICE and I am comforted by the fact that should I have chosen differently, I would’ve had options available to me.

      Now on to more of the science-y stuff…Some of it I use to support my pro-choice stance, some of it is just refuting junk science put out by pro-life organizations. (Just a note, all statistics are taken from the last year for which data is provided.)

      Abortion is safe. I mean, REALLY safe. MUCH safer than childbirth. In 2008, there were 12 abortion-related deaths in the United States, compared with approximately 650 per year for pregnancy and childbirth.(2) This is not even counting the very real, non-lethal health issues that are associated with pregnancy and childbirth. I believe that people have the right to choose which risks they engage in.

      And lest you argue that there are risks involved in abortion as well, yes, I absolutely agree that there are. There are risks involved in any surgical procedure. But the risks are not as exaggerated as many pro-life groups would have the general public believe. Abortion is not linked to an increased risk of breast cancer(3), nor is it linked to an increased risk in mental health issues(4) or risks for future pregnancies(5).

      As for abortion workers who have quit and become pro-life, that is there choice and I wish them well in their journey. Of the ones I have seen/read about, many have quit because they could not morally justify it, or because they were exposed to illegal activities that soured them on their job. Luckily, the clinics I have been associated with have never been anything but wonderful. I have never witnessed anything but doctors and nurses adhering to the utmost legal and moral standards. In fact, more than once, patients would come back, thanking us for the exceptional care that was provided to them. If I were to ever witness anything illegal or immoral in the future (I don’t currently work in a clinic), I would be the first to report. Period.

      I hope I covered everything here. If I missed anything or anyone, please let me know and I will be happy to answer. As I said, sorry this response took so long – being a single mom doesn’t leave much time for the internet and I wanted to put a lot of thought into this response.

      Sources:

      (1) Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence: http://bit.ly/11jXC9d; And here is a statement from the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) supporting that research: http://bit.ly/11jXRBf

      (2) CDC Abortion Surveillance: http://1.usa.gov/11H1nB5; CDC Maternal Mortality Surveillance: http://1.usa.gov/11H239A; http://1.usa.gov/11H29hx

      (3) American Cancer Society: http://bit.ly/11H2Wip; ACOG: http://1.usa.gov/11H31CR; World Health Organization: http://bit.ly/11H32Xj; National Cancer Institute: http://1.usa.gov/11H3dC2; Heck, even the Susan G. Komen Foundation – who wanted to cut off funding to Planned Parenthood – refutes the ABC link: http://sgk.mn/11H3zsq; http://sgk.mn/11H3AMU

      (4) APA: http://bit.ly/11H3W69; National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health: http://aomrc.org.uk/publications/reports-a-guidance/doc_download/9432-induced-abortion-and-mental-health.html

      (5) New England Journal of Medicine: http://bit.ly/11H6Asy

      • Anonymous Queer

        This is me! I’m not sure why this posted twice, but this one has a few typos (nothing big – spelling, a missed word) so please ignore it!

      • Little

        You claim that fetus’s don’t feel pain until 28 weeks. Not only does this not make sense from my stand point as a mother and as anyone who has ever seen prematurely born infants, it has been disputed. Recently Maureen Condic, (Ph.D. is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah) testified before congress in regards to Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. I’m not going to re-write everything, but here is some info from the link and includes a video of her testimony:

        “The earliest “rudiment” of the human nervous system forms by 28 days (four weeks) after sperm – egg fusion. At this stage, the primitive brain is already “patterned”; i.e. cells in different regions are specified to produce structures appropriate to their location in the nervous system as a whole,” she told lawmakers.

        “When it comes to pain specifically, scientific evidence is very clear that pain can be experienced by 20 weeks of pregnancy. But Condic said unborn children have a capacity to feel pain much earlier.

        “The neural circuitry responsible for the most primitive response to pain, the spinal reflex, is in place by 8 weeks of development,” she explained. “This is the earliest point at which the fetus experiences pain in any capacity.”

        At that point, the scientist confirmed “a fetus responds just as humans at later stages of development respond; by with withdrawing from the painful stimulus.”

        By 8-10 weeks, Dr. Condic says many of the neural connections are formed.”

        To add to this, fetus’s have been shown in utero to respond to pain stimuli as shown in their facial expressions. Also prematurely born infants have a greater pain response because their brains have not yet fully developed the ability to block some pain stimulus’s. I can’t remember the exact article I read that from but this one talks about premature babies and pain. (2)

        “In 2008, there were 12 abortion-related deaths in the United States.” Abortion deaths are under reported because generally the cause of death is not linked directly to the abortion. For example, the case of Tonya Reaves… “The medical examiner’s office said that an intrauterine pregnancy also contributed to her death.”… “Reaves’ death was ruled an accident, according to the Chicago newspaper.” (3) The fact is they are ruling her death as an accident and nothing will happen to the Dr. that botched her abortion and her death will go on record as being an accident, i.e. not an abortion reported death. Also she wouldn’t have died if she hadn’t of had the abortion. Also there are more live births than abortions in almost every state and city in the United States (I believe except for some groups like African Americans in NYC. In that case around 60% of all pregnancies end in abortion.) So it’s a no brainer that there would be more pregnancy related deaths to child birth than abortion – there are simply more babies carried to term than aborted. At any rate, I have not seen anyone claiming that abortion is more deadly than carrying a baby to full term. Yes there are risk to abortions as there are risks to having a baby. Personally what bothers me is when pro-choice groups claim that maternal mortality can somehow be fixed by increasing access to abortion. Those are two separate things entirely. To improve maternal mortality rates we need to offer better prenatal services for women.

        “Abortion is not linked to an increased risk of breast cancer” If you have the time to watch it, this talk by Dr. Lanfranci who is a breast cancer surgeon. She discusses to medical students why there is a link to breast cancer and abortion. It has to do with the fact that when a pregnancy is terminated – either by miscarriage or abortion – the growth of breast tissue is disrupted which leaves the tissue more vulnerable to carcinogens especially estrogen. She also discusses how this link is down played by medical communities and text books.

        “nor is it linked to an increased risk in mental health issues” Not exactly true. Research on this subject is hard to do because of the delicate nature of the subject, therefore there isn’t a lot of research on it. Also this is a subject which the pro-choice community does not want to talk about and therefore is not motivated to research the mental and emotional impact abortion has on women.
        I haven’t had time to read this report in it’s entirety, but here is some info that the South Dakota Abortion Task Force came out with. This particular part is talking about the experiences of women who have had abortions: “They almost uniformly express anger toward the abortion provider’s their baby’s father or society in general, which promote abortion as a great right, the exercise of which is good for women.”…”They are stunned by their grief and the negative impact it has had on their lives. Many of these women are angered by grief at the loss of a child they were told never existed. One woman testified before the Task Force about three abortions she was misled into having, only to find that she was rendered infertile by the vacuum aspiration that damaged her fallopian tubes.” (Pg 21) (5) You also said “or risks for future pregnancies”. Well as this woman has testified abortion did risk her future pregnancies: she was made infertile by the three abortions she had. She is not alone in this as I have read other testimonies by women who had abortions and were made infertile.

        Sure you can go online and find sources to back up your point of view as I can mine. Science continues to progress and what we have seen is that as it does, we have become more aware of the humanity of the unborn. We know so much more now about unborn human beings than we did when Roe v Wade was passed. I’m confident that as science progresses it will become more apparent to everyone that abortion is morally and scientifically wrong because it destroys a growing human being.

        (1) http://www.lifenews.com/2013/05/23/expert-tells-congress-unborn-babies-can-feel-pain-starting-at-8-weeks/
        ‘Expert Tells Congress Unborn Babies Can Feel Pain Starting at 8 Weeks’

        (2) http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/05May/Pages/premature-babies-feel-more-pain.aspx ‘Early babies ‘feel more pain’ ‘

        (3) http://www.christianpost.com/news/chicago-woman-dies-after-abortion-at-planned-parenthood-78671/ ‘Chicago Woman Dies After Abortion at Planned Parenthood’

        (4) http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/31249451 ‘Dr. Lanfranci’

        (5) https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:aWT7EWOEj2oJ:www.dakotavoice.com/Docs/South%2520Dakota%2520Abortion%2520Task%2520Force%2520Report.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh525eGzlANN8FeOTWTq_uDg8M2PqXlXUdkhzOv77LBTXau_YVzwC_3B5bH0DM_xgVRf-e9B2z8KM6G3CZp3tvg8xTY20TtykFDoT5XmsCUIWtqEDmwoU3wyzmZMMDxt3LuvzIx&sig=AHIEtbTtUJQonL9JmGPQv-vHuBtmHmAyKg&pli=1 ‘South Dakota Abortion Task Force Report’

        • Heather Parker

          Oh, dear. I was there in the room for Ms. Condic’s testimony (as I have been for every hearing on HR1797, and on the last incarnation of this awful piece of legislation), and I can tell you it was full of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but junk science. I have a full post (with links to full primary sources, as well as to links as to how Ms. Condic’s testimony was nothing more than show and tell linked to the bill itself) that you can read here: http://antigoneawakens.com/2013/05/29/in-which-i-discuss-hr1797-aka-why-politicians-should-never-play-doctors/

      • Ramona

        I appreciate you sharing your reasons, though I hope you will read the responses below and perhaps change your mind. The fetal pain assertion just isn’t logical, irregardless of the study you cited; I know several young people born premies (after 21 weeks!), and I don’t think their nervous system suddenly switched to “on” as they left the womb through the birth canal or via c-section. I’d like to see that research examined/challenged.

        Also, when I was pro-choice and had an abortion some 30 years ago, I was told by the Planned Parenthood clinic that only women who were already mentally ill would have their mental health impacted by an abortion. Talk about a neat and tidy way to keep women from speaking up!

        Finally, not all states even require abortion clinics to report complications and deaths resulting from their work (http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_ARR.pdf); and among those states that do require it, it is done on the “honor system.” Plenty of room for pro-abortion junk science and junk statistics.

        So thanks for clarifying your position. But I hope you are open to critically examining these things that you say convinced you to abandon the pro-life perspective.

        • Anonymous Queer

          I have examined and cross-examined and looked at it from every possible angle. And I’m still pro-choice. Sorry.

      • RNperioperative

        Guest, are you an MD or a Nurse?

        • Anonymous Queer

          I’m assuming you are asking me? I do not disclose this information to protect my own privacy. Sorry.

    • Anonymous Queer

      Hi, all.

      Sorry it’s taken me a couple days to get back here. I will attempt to answer everyone – if I leave anyone out, please let me know! Also, if there is a number in parentheses after a sentence, it means there’s a footnote – go to the end and check it out!

      I just want to point out before I dive in that not even the pro-life position can be fully supported by science. You say a fetus is alive, and therefore it is wrong to kill it. Yes, a fetus is alive. However, just because something is alive does not mean it automatically gets “protections.” No medical standpoint can justify, explain, or support that – only a moral or legal one can. For example, right now as I type this, the US is conducting drone strikes in the Middle East in the name of “national security” and “fighting terrorism.” Unfortunately, as happens in war, civilians are killed in these strikes. Yet this is legal. It’s also legal (and some would argue moral) to kill those who have been convicted of heinous crimes via the death penalty and to kill in self-defense.

      And, personally, I find nothing moral about forcing, either through laws, lies, or shame, a person to carry a pregnancy they don’t want or are not prepared for. And, while a fetus feels nothing emotionally or physically during an abortion (as they do not feel pain before 28 weeks), the person carrying it sure does.(1) I am all too familiar with these feelings – fear, anger, panic, confusion. And, as I said before, while I eventually chose to both carry and parent my child, that was my CHOICE and I am comforted by the fact that should I have chosen differently, I would’ve had options available to me.

      Now on to more of the science-y stuff…Some of it I use to support my pro-choice stance, some of it is just refuting junk science put out by pro-life organizations. (Just a note, all statistics are taken from the last year for which data is provided.)

      Abortion is safe. I mean, REALLY safe. MUCH safer than childbirth. In 2008, there were 12 abortion-related deaths in the United States, compared with approximately 650 per year for pregnancy and childbirth.(2) This is not even counting the very real, non-lethal health issues that are associated with pregnancy and childbirth. I believe that people have the right to choose which risks they engage in.

      And lest you argue that there are risks involved in abortion as well, yes, I absolutely agree that there are. There are risks involved in any surgical procedure. But the risks are not as exaggerated as many pro-life groups would have the general public believe. Abortion is not linked to an increased risk of breast cancer(3), nor is it linked to an increased risk in mental health issues(4) or risks for future pregnancies(5).

      As for abortion workers who have quit and become pro-life, that is there choice and I wish them well in their journey. Of the ones I have seen/read about, many have quit because they could not morally justify it, or because they were exposed to illegal activities that soured them on their job. Luckily, the clinics I have been associated with have never been anything but wonderful. I have never witnessed anything but doctors and nurses adhering to the utmost legal and moral standards. In fact, more than once, patients would come back, thanking us for the exceptional care that was provided to them. If I were to ever witness anything illegal or immoral in the future (I don’t currently work in a clinic), I would be the first to report. Period.

      I hope I covered everything here. If I missed anything or anyone, please let me know and I will be happy to answer. As I said, sorry this response took so long – being a single mom doesn’t leave much time for the internet and I wanted to put a lot of thought into this response.

      Sources:

      (1) Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence: http://bit.ly/11jXC9d; And here is a statement from the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) supporting that research: http://bit.ly/11jXRBf

      (2) CDC Abortion Surveillance: http://1.usa.gov/11H1nB5; CDC Maternal Mortality Surveillance: http://1.usa.gov/11H239A; http://1.usa.gov/11H29hx

      (3) American Cancer Society: http://bit.ly/11H2Wip; ACOG: http://1.usa.gov/11H31CR; World Health Organization: http://bit.ly/11H32Xj; National Cancer Institute: http://1.usa.gov/11H3dC2; Heck, even the Susan G. Komen Foundation – who wanted to cut off funding to Planned Parenthood – refutes the ABC link: http://sgk.mn/11H3zsq; http://sgk.mn/11H3AMU

      (4) APA: http://bit.ly/11H3W69; National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health: http://aomrc.org.uk/publications/reports-a-guidance/doc_download/9432-induced-abortion-and-mental-health.html

      (5) New England Journal of Medicine: http://bit.ly/11H6Asy;

      • Ellie

        This breaks my heart a little bit. I can’t imagine going from pro-life to pro-choice, especially after carrying a child inside of you that you chose life for. I hope that you someday see things differently. I don’t know what else to hope for, but a woman has no more right to kill her unborn child than she does to kill her toddler or any child. Anything else is untrue. Attempt to defend it all you want, but my prayer is that those untruths are revealed to you.

      • Rebecca

        I would just like to ask you about your statement ” nor is it linked to an increased risk in mental health issues(4)” I know quite a few women who have chosen to terminate pregnancies, some recently and some that had them 30+ years ago. Of these women all of them have had profound effects on their mental state. Ive witnessed many of them who have gone through this process in the last two years not be able to motivate themselves to live life and be happy for months and still have bad days where their “choice” overwhelms them emotionally and physically. With the older women in my life it is still a struggle that they deal with daily. How can you say there is not an increased risk for mental health issues?

        • rubisco

          Increased risk is a statistical concept, not an anecdotal one. I can tell you stories about women I’ve known who regret having carried to term and giving up an infant for adoption and have deep, emotional scars from that as well. Knowing a woman, or even a handful of women who have struggled with a choice that they made does not a rational case make.

          • Diana

            Statistically — there’s no way to count women whose grief caused them to take their own lives.

          • rubisco

            Actually, there are statistical methods for sampling that would allow researchers to do that. That’s why statistics are so useful: you don’t have to measure the entire population.

        • Diana

          And, of course —- we have no way of counting those women whose grief caused them to take their lives.

      • Aimee

        I have all the compassion in the world for your situation and experience… but if you truly believe fetuses cannot feel pain before 28 weeks gestation, then you have exchanged the truth for a lie. It simply isn’t true. Having spent quite a bit of time in various NICU’s throughout my career, and observed many babies born before 28 weeks, I assure you they feel both physical pain and emotional distress. You can drag up a study to say it isn’t so, and I can drag up one to say it is… but when you are staring into the face of a premature baby, there is no disputing the pure fact that is right in front of you.

        Also, having several friends who underwent abortions as teenagers, I can assure you those abortions were definitely linked to mental distress and anguish on their parts in every case. And certainly for a few, it was linked to their later ability to carry a baby to term.

        I have yet to see you cite anything that would be considered “junk science” spouted by pro-lifers. Show me that human babies are not being torn limb from limb and killed and we will talk junk science. Otherwise, it is what it is. You are a long way from going on and on about the medical aspect. What else have you got?

        And let me just add that as a pro-lifer to the very core, I have compassion for women and girls who have experienced the pain of abortion… from the personal experience of the women I know who have had them, abortions hurt the women every bit as surely as they destroy the child. What you participated in back in your days of “reaching out” sounds like a very different picture from what many pro-lifers would consider reaching out. Reaching out, in my opinion, is done in love and compassion and does not involve yelling or bullying or shaming. Just my thoughts. There are those of us pro-lifers out there who take a different approach from what you must have witnessed.

        • Kristiburtonbrown

          Aimee, if you’d consider writing a guest article on your personal experiences – both working in the NICU and your friends who had abortions, we’d love to see it submitted to editor@liveaction.org.

          • Anonymous Queer

            Hi, Kristi,

            Would you also like an article about my experiences in the NICU and my friends who have had abortions? I would love to submit it!

        • Anonymous Queer

          Hi there, Aimee,

          I have actually spent more than enough time in NICUs as (again) someone who is medically trained and as the mom of a former NICU baby. It’s a fallacy that pain perception in preemies can be applied to fetuses, as they are living in radically different environments. “Pain” as we experience it requires an awareness that fetuses don’t yet have because they are still in the womb. And, honestly, what is perceived as “pain response” in preemies may not actually be them feeling pain as much as a reflex response. These two articles explain it better if you would like to read up a bit: http://bit.ly/129V7Sa; http://slidesha.re/129V9tq

          Also, as someone else pointed out, anecdotal evidence does not equal a statistical likelihood. While you know people who aborted and regretted it, I know people who aborted and are completely fine, and some who, years later, feel it was absolutely the right decision and would do it again were they in the same situation again. And lest you think I don’t believe or don’t care about women who experience pain after their abortion, I do. I struggle with depression and PTSD, and, frankly, I don’t care why you hurt. I only care that you hurt. If you hurt after your abortion, I truly hope you are able to access the care you need to heal and move forward. But I also realize that because some people experience negative feelings after an abortion does not mean everyone will, nor does it mean we should remove the option for EVERYONE. And, since I’m not sure about the specifics of your friends’ medical cases, I will reserve comment on their abortions being linked to their ability to conceive later in life. I WILL, however, say that if they had their abortions many years ago, different surgical tools were used that could potentially cause scarring of the uterus, which could then cause difficulty in conceiving later, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

          Also, I’m not sure how you could’ve missed the junk science I posted and refuted in this comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-934559555 I’m not going to rehash it all, as it I already typed it out once.

          Also, when I was on the sidewalk, what I was doing was :reaching out” (or so I thought). I didn’t yell in anger. In fact, I didn’t even yell. The side where we were allowed to stand was close enough that I could speak without raising my voice. I thought I did what I did in love and compassion. I was wrong. What I did was wrong. Having been on the other side of that sidewalk, I now know what those women were going through and how I had absolutely NO right to judge them or their situations or to presume I knew what was best for them.

          • Heather Parker

            Here is actually a FANTASTIC article by a NICU nurse about caring for extremely pre-term infants: http://thepreemieexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/10/viability-through-eyes-of-nicu-nurse.html, and here is an article that discusses the viability rates for extremely preterm infants (note that at 22 weeks LMP, an infant has only a 2% chance of surviving long enough to leave the hospital, even w/ all of the treatments available): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2012-12-05-premature-birth-survival-rates-on-the-rise-/

          • Jesi Langdale

            And what about this quote from Ann Furedi? “We can accept that the embryo is a living thing in the fact that it has a beating heart, that it has its own genetic system within it. It’s clearly human in the sense that it’s not a gerbil, and we can recognize that it is human life… the point is not when does human life begin, but when does it really begin to matter?”

            When do you believe that human life begins to matter? And what about persons who have a rare genetic defect that makes them unable to feel pain? Is it ok to kill them?

            I’m not against abortion because embryos/fetuses can or cannot feel pain, or if they can or cannot have ‘rational thought’/ I’m against abortion because fundamentally embryos/fetuses are humans, albeit much smaller and in a different developmental stage, but nonetheless, human, and I believe that all human life matters, and I am against the killing of innocents, no matter who it ‘inconveniences’.

          • Heather Parker

            Jesi, I applaud that you believe all human life matters, but I find it odd that most on this side (including you, from what I’ve read of your post), seem to think that the life of a ZEF (zygote, embryo, fetus), and not the life of a pregnant person is what REALLY matters.

            It is a fact that a human ZEF is human, and that it is alive. But it is NOT a person. And as a human rights attorney, I deal with the protection of human rights, which DO NOT attach until birth. That means that I believe in protecting women and their rights over ZEF.

            In every pregnancy, we know that there is one person who has rights to life and health; to be free from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment; to their liberty and security; to their right to privacy; and to determine the number and spacing of their children – the pregnant person. Denying a pregnant person access to abortion services should they make the decision to have an abortion violates these rights (in severe cases, ALL of these rights).

            p.s. This discussion on “human life” is actually a red herring in a legal / medical discussion. (If this were only a philosophical discussion with no legal implications, then talk about human life all you want). “Human life” actually doesn’t mean anything in the medico-legal abortion discussion, because we’re concerned with persons.

          • Marianne

            A few things: I am very very sorry for you getting raped, and the huge trauma of it plus it resulting in a pregnancy. However, nr 1 God wants to heal you. Nr 2, you have your son, who is NOT guilty of anything and should not be punished for the gross violation/evil his biological father did. You’re actually an ultra proof for how abortion is wrong because your son is a living proof of it. He’d be dead if you aborted. How can you possibly be pro abortion in light of this?The junk science belongs to the pro-abortionists. It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception, that is why someone is pregnant. A pregnant woman is not carrying around a dead feuts. Every human being is a clump of cells, and if it is lack of form anyone is suggesting that is not true either. Check out pictures of embryos. It is alive, it has its own body, DNA and most of all SOUL. Noone has any right to kill and take someone elses life.Bottomline; It’s not yours to take. The baby inside the womb is specifically situated there to be protected. We ALL have to answer to what we do and how we have treated others one day, and you should praise God you did not have an abortion.

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            Actually, I was sort of ambivalently pro-choice before I became pregnant. It was actually my pregnancy that catapulted me into being full-blown, no compromise pro-choice. Yes, my son wouldn’t be here if I had aborted him. But having lived through rape, and having friends that have aborted both because of rape and because reasons that pro-lifers would label as “convenience” and selfishness I have come to the conclusion that their fears and concerns were no less legitimate than mine, and that they deserve access to safe, legal, compassionate abortion care as much I did as a survivor of rape.

            And I’m not sure what junk science you’re saying belongs to the pro-choicers. No one is denying that an embryo or fetus is alive. Or, if they are, they are ignorant to basic biological facts. Of course it’s alive. But, as I believe I stated in another part of this thread, just because something is alive, doesn’t mean it is automatically afforded protections. In the case of pregnancy, when you have two beings sharing and dependent upon the same body, there has to be a prioritization of rights. And, in my opinion, the rights of the person owns the body must take priority. After all, if we take away the right to bodily autonomy just because someone is pregnant, what next? We don’t force people to donate blood or organs, even if it means the death of another person. Why should we force someone to “donate” their uterus to a fetus?

            And if you truly believe that “Noone [sic] has any right to kill and take someone elses life.Bottomline [sic]; It’s not yours to take” I truly hope you are against war and the death penalty, and that you support social welfare programs such as food stamps, WIC and universal healthcare, as people do

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            (Sorry – hit the post button before I was finished posting!)

            And if you truly believe that “Noone [sic] has any right to kill and take someone elses life.Bottomline [sic]; It’s not yours to take” I truly hope you are against war and the death penalty, and that you support social welfare programs such as food stamps, WIC and universal healthcare, as people do die from these things (or lack thereof.)

          • Calvin Freiburger

            So why can’t a mother’s “legitimate fears and concerns” justify drowning her 2-year-old in a tub? 2-year-olds are expensive, stressful, demanding, and they wreak havoc with poverty-stricken and fatherless lives, just as unwanted pregnancies do. (And yes, I know you get testy when people compare pre-birth to post-birth. But I seem to recall challenging you on that point, without being refuted.)

            “No one is denying that an embryo or fetus is alive.”

            *sigh* Seriously? I find it extremely hard to believe you’re that unfamiliar with your own side’s arguments and propaganda. Fortunately, I recently compiled some “no ones” in this comment: http://liveactionnews.org/what-if-we-applied-pro-aborts-anti-intellectualism-to-other-scientific-questions/#comment-909070700

            “I truly hope you are against war and the death penalty, and that you support social welfare programs such as food stamps, WIC and universal healthcare.”

            Oh, how I tire of liberals using lazy cliches like this as crutches.

            War:
            http://liveactionnews.org/are-non-pacifist-pro-lifers-hypocrites/

            Death Penalty:
            http://liveactionnews.org/abortion-and-capital-punishment-a-modest-proposal/

            Welfare:
            http://liveactionnews.org/analysis/refuting-libby-anne-no-pro-lifers-arent-making-children-too-expensive-to-let-live/
            http://liveactionnews.org/from-lost-faith-in-pro-lifers-to-blind-faith-in-government-libby-anne-responds/

      • Calvin Freiburger

        First, I can think of at least one “medical standpoint” that most certainly does strongly weigh against abortion – this passage from the Hippocratic Oath: “Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If
        it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my
        power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with
        great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not
        play at God.”

        Second, the scientific truth that unborn babies are living human beings supports the pro-life position the following way: because they are just as alive and just as human as born people are, we must determine whether to protect or kill them using the same criteria for determining whether to protect or kill born people. That’s what makes your war and capital punishment examples illegitimate – the fact that killing may be acceptable in those circumstances no more justifies abortion than it would justify killing adults outside of those circumstances.

        Third, whether the baby feels his or her execution is morally irrelevant to deciding whether killing him or her is justified. Painlessly killing your neighbor in his sleep doesn’t make it okay.

        Fourth, as it happens, I recently had the opportunity to take a look at abortion’s association with risk in future pregnancies. Your assurance that there’s nothing to worry about is premature: http://liveactionnews.org/nc-education-bill-on-abortion-preterm-birth-link-sparks-selective-outrage-from-naral/

        • Sara

          How can you be “living” if you cannot breath on your own or even with medical interventions? Please answer me that one question and then maybe, just maybe I will understand how a newly conceived fetus is as human as you or I.

          • Bert_1

            If I may: How can you not be “living”. In order for a cell to exist, it must be alive since it is a biological entity. When the egg cell is fertilized, it becomes a brand new human being complete with his/her own DNA. If that cell wasn’t alive, not only would it not be a cell, it would not multiple. Only living biological entities have the ability to grow. Rocks don’t. And, as I said to you earlier, you can trace your existence back to the point at which you were conceived. You were a single celled human being at that point. The DNA you have in your body today is the exact same DNA that one cell had – the only exception to that rule is if you happen to be one of a multiple birth. Each child in a multiple has very similar, but different, DNA.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            Uhh, the same way someone who needs a ventilator to breath is still alive?

          • mrteachersir

            Consider the logic you are using. You are saying that the ability to breath determines if something is “living”. What about bacteria, which DON’T NEED to breath? Are they not living? I think that most doctors and biologists would argue otherwise.

          • Jesi Langdale

            There’s yr answer Sara. Look at your choice of words ‘as human as you or I.’ You’re basing the unborn’s humanity on their size, their dependency and their environment. You do realize this is exactly the type of reasoning that people have used to conduct genocide for centuries? How can a human be less human?

      • Dana Herron

        Panicking over the idea of not having the option of abortion, and therefore using that as a reason to be pro-choice is ludicrous. I quit smoking even though it is still legal, and yes, I felt panicky many times while trying to quit. I panicked when I realized that I didn’t have any cigarettes on me if I wanted to change my mind, or that I didn’t have a lighter anymore. There is always something to panic about. Something that will trigger an emotional response in a person. Emotions do not determine truth. The truth was that I needed to quit smoking to protect my health. The truth about abortion is that it is killing human babies.

        What I think you are really regretting about previously being pro-life is that maybe you were too zealous and abusive to those women and made them feel shameful. We should always speak the truth in love. The truth is a standard set by the creator God. Not whatever thoughts, feelings or opinions man/woman makes up to gloss over their own guilt produced by immoral actions where they ignore God’s truth. Morality is not a human construct; it is humans following the guidance of truth as given to us by God.

        Why don’t you spend some time thinking about reversing your choice and lying on a table allowing an abortion doctor to rip your son apart, (don’t forget to imagine his face while you do this) suck him into a bottle and throw him in a hazardous waste receptacle. Would you miss your life with him? Can you honestly say that just because he passed through your vagina that that is the moment that he was human and had rights? Did you hate him while he was in your womb, but decide after 21 weeks to love him because he was somehow real after that? What was he before that? A blob of cells that would never amount to anything? Seriously, had your son been aborted before birth, would he have not been a real person? Maybe even now he is not a real person. After all, the only thing he accomplished was avoiding being aborted.

        How do you explain the mourning process women go through who wanted to be pregnant and have a miscarriage? They actually experience depression, grief and a healing process. Some of them actually have the “fetus” buried in a funeral ceremony. Are those women stupid to believe that that “fetus” was a child that they lost? Yes they are expressing feelings, but the truth here is that their child died and it is an appropriate time to express those feelings!!!

        FYI, I am one of those pro-lifers who do think that there should still be a choice for women who are raped and it would have to be very early in the pregnancy. But for them only, because their only choice (to have or not have sex) was taken from them. I hope that something someone says here is helpful in helping you regain your sense of right and wrong. I think its wonderful that even though you made a choice, you chose to keep your fetus, I mean, son. The real problem in this debate is not you. Convincing you one way or another is not going to end the debate on abortion. The problem is that millions of people out there are turning a blind eye to the truth, and convincing them all would be impossible.

        • Sara

          I think there is a fundamental difference between panicking over a bad habit that you subjected yourself to versus the situation and horror of being forcibly raped as Anonymous Queer was. Lets not treat these two things as though they were apples to apples.

        • Anonymous Queer

          Dana,

          As Sara said, there is a very big difference between choosing to abstain from a bad habit that you chose to engage in in the first place, and being raped. Just…really? You see no difference between craving a cigarette and the psychological trauma that results from rape? I honestly don’t even know how to respond to this comment.

          And, yes, I was abusive, but not in the way you are thinking. I was not mean, I did not call them murderers. I did was what many of you would call “compassionate.” I prayed, held pictures of perfect little white babies with trite messages about how life was beautiful and how the baby inside you has fingers and toes. I gently told the women entering they had “other options” and there was “help” out there for her. In fact, the group I prayed with SPECIFICALLY separated ourselves from the people who DID yell and call the women murderers and hold bloody fetus pictures because we wanted to be seen as the kind ones, the ones the women would approach so we could dissuade her from obtaining an abortion.

          And I STILL regret every second of what I did. Because, as I said above, I’ve been on the other side of the sidewalk. And I’ve wanted to yell in their faces, “No, you DON’T know what I am feeling. No, you DON’T understand. And, if you really cared, you would be asking me how you can best support me, not trying to force me into the situation YOU think is right for me.”

          Also, there’s a huge difference between a wanted pregnancy and an unwanted one. I mean, do I really have to explain why people grieve over a miscarriage for a child they wanted and hoped for, but not over an abortion they chose to have? Of course people are going to grieve when something they want and hope for is taken from them.

          And you can say I chose to keep my fetus. My son was a fetus when I chose to continue with my pregnancy. Son is my relation to him. Fetus is a developmental stage he went through. There is nothing insulting about saying that – “fetus” is a scientifically accurate term for a stage of development we all had to go through. In fact, before I knew his biological sex, my friends jokingly dubbed him “Cletus the Fetus” and the name stuck all throughout my pregnancy.

          • Anonymous Queer

            Also, this is the last comment that I will respond to that deals directly with my son. Attack me all you want – leave my son out of it.

          • Jesi Langdale

            I agree, yr son doesn’t deserve to be brought into this, but I think the OP’s question to you was in no way emotional ‘blackmail’. The issue of abortion is the issue of life and death. Think of it this way, what kind of questions would you ask an SS officer who let the gas into a death chamber, and who defended his position? Wouldn’t you ask him to reverse the situation on his own children, and imagine that pain he would feel and his children would? Then, you may say, that’s a totally different scenario. But, is it? The unborn are humans, what keeps them from being persons? What gives another human the right to end the life of another innocent human because they are in some way dependent? This is the side we’re coming from. When we see abortion we don’t see like vs. dislike, or choice vs. not choice. We see innocent human persons being disposed of because they are voiceless and their rights are smashed under someone else’s. It’s like the argument of where does my fist end and a persons’s nose begin? In this country, how far do my rights trump those of others?

          • Anonymous Queer

            Really? Telling someone to imagine their child’s face as they are being dismembered (when they know full well an embryo looks NOTHING like a born baby) or “maybe you should’ve aborted him” ISN’T emotional blackmail? Really? I really don’t want to even respond to the rest of your comment because this strikes me as so absurd and callous that I cannot imagine there is going to be any good faith debate with you, but for the sake of openness, here I go…

            It IS a totally different scenario. Murdering born humans who can think and feel and are aware of what is happening to them IS different than a person who WILLINGLY CHOOSES to undergo an abortion.

            Also, if you want to talk about rights, let’s talk about the rights of the pregnant person. Pregnancy is a completely unique biological situation in which two beings of the same species are alive inside of and dependent upon one body. And, yes, the fetus DOES have their own body, but without the body of the mother, they would die. Therefore, we need to decide who has MORE of a right to said body – the pregnant person or the fetus. Seeing as how the body belongs to the pregnant person, and they are the one who owns it, and who will need to live in it long after the fetus has left, I would say the rights ultimately belong to them.

          • Jesi Langdale

            I’m sorry. This is a long comment string and I misread a lot of that girl’s quotes, and didn’t see those details therein The more I read down the more I agree she’s callous and isn’t even giving a very good argument. Sorry for looking that over on my part.

            I’d rather you not use all caps to emphasize text though, as I know this can be a heated debate, but I like to try and keep it rational, because only with rationality can we come to some type of conclusion.I think I did this earlier, so why don’t we decide to use asterisks instead, gives a lot less of the feeling of being screamed at.

            Ok. So, you assume that the embryo/fetus cannot ‘think or feel’ and are not aware of what is happening to them. I would like to know which scientific study backs up this statement? Only because I could only assume that something that moves inside the uterus would definitely respond to stimuli, and have some sense of awareness of its surroundings and what is happening to it.

            Now, while the scientific data is still *inconclusive* as to whether or not the embryo/fetus feels pain, this doesn’t mean that it is a smart ethical choice to say, ‘since it is inconclusive it must be so’. The best ground to stand on is that of, ‘since it is inconclusive, it is best to retain best judgement’.

            Now then, we speak of the rights of the pregnant woman, which I agree to count, to some extent. It’s the age old argument of where does a person’s fist end and another’s begin? How far can someone swing before they’ve hurt another and committed a wrong against another person. So, in your decision you’ve concluded that due to their dependence on the mother, the embryo/fetus has less rights than the mother. Yet, a newborn infant has very little sense of what we might call ‘awareness’, and definitely (as far as we can tell scientifically) no capacity for emotion or rational thought, and it is very much dependent upon the persons around it for survival. So, say that said persons do not want to care for the newborn anymore, is it ethical to kill the newborn, even in the most humane and quick way? Why not? And why is it that people who are solely dependent upon technology to survive are considered persons? What about children with a rare genetic abnormality that causes them to be incapable of feeling any pain? Are they less human because they do not feel physically?

            The question I am asking stands on the ground that an embryo/fetus is a human, it is technically an ‘unborn child’ and that, if it is a human, it is also a person and furthermore, if it is a person, there is not justification for the elective killing of these innocent humans. Now, I will remind you that I am in opposition to elective abortion, in cases of health and rape (which while I am personally against abortion even for rape) I do believe there should be an exception.

            And another problem being that many reasons given as ‘justification’ of the killing of unborn children are quite eugenic in nature. For example, using the social/economic situation of the mother/father as an excuse, this implies that children in poor areas are somehow not as ‘worthwhile’ or ‘lucky’ than those in more well-to-do areas.

            I will also say in response and another question to your response on my thought experiment of killing the starving children, what if you killed them in their sleep? When they had no awareness? Or let’s say the children couldn’t feel pain, and for some reason could not be aware of your killing of them, would the end still justify the means?

            I was pro-choice until January of this year, and I had my son two years ago. I had an abortion at age 19, for personal reasons, as well as a tinge of family pushing me in that direction. When I sat down and looked at the whole issue, and the truths of biology, and also our past of how we judge and deem fellow humans as more or less of ‘persons’ I had no choice but to become pro-life. While many of my friends cannot believe I made such a switch, I can see how apparent it is when we put aside any political agendas or some false idea of abortion being a women’s rights issue/ I just ask for you to do that and look at the facts and then reassess your viewpoints.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            “It IS a totally different scenario.”

            Because you say so. Gotcha.

            “Pregnancy is a completely unique biological situation in which two beings of the same species are alive inside of and dependent upon one body.”

            Then stop pretending that it’s analogous to forced organ donation.

            “Seeing as how the body belongs to the pregnant person, and they are the one who owns it, and who will need to live in it long after the fetus has left, I would say the rights ultimately belong to them.”

            And I would say that’s a load of crap. Let us count the ways:

            1.) In the vast majority of pregnancies, the mother is directly responsible for the fetus’ presence within her. The fetus certainly didn’t put himself/herself in there. No amount of hysterics can erase the tacit permission there.

            2.) Even if we concede a mother’s general right to remove an unwanted son or daughter, it doesn’t automatically follow that any and every possible means of doing so – in this case, killing him or her – would be justified. I can kick out a drunk who’s broken into my house and passed out on my couch, but that doesn’t mean I can put a shotgun to his head and blow him away in my sleep.

            3.) If you’re approaching the question from the standpoint of what gives each party rights, the fetus actually DOES have an inherent right to develop safely within his or her mother’s womb. Nature puts that baby in that uterus. He or she isn’t some fluke or
            foreign entity, but a natural result of the reproductive process working
            correctly. Sustaining developing offspring is the uterus’s biological
            function. The baby owns the uterus just as much as Mom does.

          • Dana Herron

            1. You missed the part completely where I said that I was sympathetic to allowing women who had been raped to still have a legal choice to abort.
            2. The quitting smoking thing was in response to you “panicking’ over possibly NOT having the option. I was talking about how choices we make or not having choices can cause panic in all kinds of situations, but panic doesn’t make murder acceptable. I never said that being raped would not cause panic. Obviously it would and does. In fact that is a #1 fear I have in life.

            3. If the whole process of carrying him was really that disturbing to you psychologically, maybe you should have aborted him, since that option in your opinion would have left no emotional scars.
            4. No I was never raped. But I also never wanted to have children of my own. I ended up having two while in an abusive marriage. Both of my children are mentally ill, one severely, and he also has a form of autism. Shortly after the second one was born my husband left us, broke and alone with no family nearby. My life has been hell for their whole existence. BUT I am still glad that I did not choose abortion, because at least I can honor God’s laws. My reward for living through this is in heaven.

          • Heather Parker

            WTF is wrong with you that you think that suggesting that someone should have aborted their child is an okay response to a rape survivor who made the painful decision to carry her pregnancy to term. No, really, I want to know what is wrong with you that makes you think that such a response is EVER okay.

          • Dana Herron

            Wow, Heather I’m impressed. You have only read the last one or two comments in a very long discussion about being pro-life vs. being pro-choice. Anonymous Queer is a former pro-lifer who became pro-choice after being convinced that she was previously wrong and that medical evidence proves that the fetus has no feelings or rights before 21 weeks of gestation. But, upon being raped, she made the choice to keep her baby even though she had a really hard time emotionally with that decision and couldn’t bond immediately with the child. I am a pro-lifer, so obviously I think she made the right choice. Then she said she was still suffering emotionally from this choice because her child reminds her of her rapist and he has undiagnosed medical problems. In previous arguments, she made the case that women who choose to abort do not suffer any emotional consequences. So I suggested that maybe she should have chosen differently, since she believes that it would have been less traumatic emotionally to abort. Can’t you recognize when someone is pointing out that the logic they are using is wrong or twisted?

          • Heather Parker

            No, Dana – I read every single post in this ridiculously long thread (all 100+ of them). I know precisely who AQ is having come across her on other social media platforms, and I know what she’s gone through. Knowing that, I know just how UNBELIEVABLY callous and cruel your suggestion was. You are precisely the type of person AQ talks abt when she talks about “prolife” “counselors” hurting women. I encourage you to take a step back and think about what you say before anything else vile comes out of your mouth.

          • Dana Herron

            Whatever Heather. I never called her names. Never said anything callous or cruel or intended to inflict harm. I applauded her choice. We are discussing the legal and emotional realities and ramifications of abortion. Not telling her what to do in her situation or saying “oh, I understand”. You are the one inflaming the conversation. I am not a pro-life counselor nor do I feel called to be one. I am just a pro-lifer who recognizes poor logic and the thinly veiled deceptions from the enemy of this world (the devil) when I see it. Amazing how neither of you wanted to comment on my situation that I revealed above. Is that because you only have respect for people who are pro-choice? I actually have respect for people on both sides and only wish that they could see the truth that abortion is murder. But you can take over now, defaming my character on this board all you want. Anonymous Queer, I wish you only the best and blessings in getting your son the medical help he needs. You are a tough momma and I am sure you are doing everything you can to stay strong for him.

          • Anonymous Queer

            If you can wait for a moment I am writing a response to you that includes acknowledging your situation.

          • Heather Parker

            (a) I refuse to believe you’re so dense as to believe that one needs to call someone names to be callous. When you suggested that (and I quote), “maybe you should have aborted him” – that, that in and of itself was callous and cruel. Whether or not it was intended to inflict harm, well, I’m not inside your head, so I can’t say. But I CAN say that telling a woman she should have aborted her child is callous and cruel, whatever your intentions.

            (b) As for not telling her what to do – YOU JUST DID. Right there, up above. And I just quoted it. You suggested that she should have aborted. That is telling her what she should have done. Do you really think the readers here are so dense that they will somehow skip over that part of your post?

            (c) I’m not seeing any situation that you revealed above, but if you’d care to point it out, I’m sure I’d LOVE to comment on it.

            (d) Again, murder is a legal term. And every single statute defining murder in the United States SPECIFICALLY excludes abortion. So please quit saying that it is murder. That would be a lie.

            (e) Defamation is also a legal term…it appears that you also don’t really understand what that means, but please understand that you’re using it incorrectly, and I am most definitely NOT “defaming your character.”

            (f) That last part there? That’s all you ever needed to say about AQ’s son. ALL you needed to say. Why you felt the need to be cruel when it’s clear you have the capability to put forth kind and caring words is beyond me, but in the future, it might be best to stick with sentiments similar to those in the last two sentences of your diatribe.

          • Dana Herron

            Murder is murder. Just because a court case made the current law define when they consider it murder or not is irrelevant. God’s law says it is murder and that is the truth. Man’s law is an affront to God’s truth. I will call it what it is thank you very much. You can hide behind a stupid man-made law all you want to justify anything under the sun. Maybe you’d like to take a stab at defending all the other stupid man-made laws that eventually got revoked in this country when the people stood up and said that they were actually wrong and bad laws. Like, slavery used to be legal…bad law. Um, segregation used to be legal…bad law. In Germany during WWII, killing Jews used to be the norm…that was bad too and we had a whole war to stop it.

            And who are you to tell me what I can and can’t do? You have no right to tell me what I can and can’t say. Especially when I was not intending to be rude. And yes, you did misinterpret my reason for saying that. Your definition of being cruel is pretty wide if you call what I said cruel. And you are STILL being inflammatory and extremely rude to me.

            And no, I don’t feel like pointing out my situation again, cause all you saw is what you wanted to see and nothing else. You are rude and offensive and callous yourself. I read some of your other posts to other articles in this forum, and you are a highly inflammatory person who likes to stir up stuff and are a pro-choice extremist. Nuff said.

          • Heather Parker
          • Diana

            Dear Guest, I recognized that you were playing Devil’s Advocate there. But, under the circumstances . . .

          • Anonymous Queer

            Dana,

            I think this is going to be my last time replying to you, as I don’t appreciate words being put into my mouth, nor do I appreciate my words being twisted.

            1. Well, gee, that TOTALLY makes all the rest of the completely horrible things you said okay. I feel better now.

            2. The point was you compared to situations that cannot be compared – not having a cigarette vs. being forced to carry a pregnancy that has resulted from rape. This is extremely disrespectful to rape survivors, and shows how very little you actually care about women who have had to live through such decisions. This is another reason I “switched sides,” so to speak – the absolute misogyny and hypocrisy I encountered in the so-called “pro-life” movement.

            3. What Heather said. I really, really want to know how you got THAT out of what I said. I made a painful, difficult choice to carry and parent my child. As I stated before, it is not a choice I regret. But the pro-life movement’s approach to “abortion-minded” women is always that abortion will horribly emotionally scar you and if you just have your baby, everything will be okay. You’ll never regret it, and you’ll live together as one, big, happy family. Or, you can always do the *~selfless~* thing and put your baby up for adoption. Trust me – I heard it all. Both from a CPC I mistakenly went to and from my fundamentalist Christian mother. And, I’m sorry, but that’s not the reality of life. Having a child is HARD, even more so when you are dealing with things like having to deal with the fact that something you are carrying inside of you was created through an act of violence and violation on a scale that cannot be fathomed by those who have not lived through it. If you truly cared about rape survivors and not just about proving how morally superior you are to us little “deceived” pro-choicers, your first thought wouldn’t be “How can I show them how WRONG they are?” Instead, it would be, “How can I best support this person in their healing process?” Hint: It doesn’t involve forcing your moral perspective on a scared, traumatized rape survivor. They just lived through that with their rapist – they don’t need to live through it again with the people that are supposed to be “helping” them.

            4. I’m truly sorry you’ve had to live through abuse. No one should ever have to. It seems from your past-tense that things are looking up now. At least, I hope they are. As someone who struggles with mental illness, it’s a hard road to travel. I truly hope your child can find the help they need. Mental health resources for children are severely lacking in this country and families suffer because of it. Been there, done that. And, if I have learned one thing through my own experiences and the experiences of friends, it is that dealing with and healing from trauma is not a “one size fits all” solution. What has helped you deal and heal may not help me, and what has helped me may not help you. This is why all options must remain open and available – including abortion.

            Also, in response to your comment below, I never said people who have had abortions never suffer any problems. In fact in an earlier comment, I said my heart hurts for those who experience negative emotions after an abortion. Might wanna read up on that: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-935644039

            What I DID say was that abortion is not linked to an increased risk in mental health issues. As rubisco pointed out, increased risk is a statistical concept, not an anecdotal one. Just because some people experience negative emotions after an abortion does not mean there is a statistical likelihood that all people will.

            All of this being said, I truly do wish you well.

          • Diana

            So sorry, dear, for all that has happened to your beautiful family.

            God bless you and your family. You will be in my prayers. Please put us in yours, as well. One of my kids has been struggling with mental “health” issues, caused by childhood abuse. Her grandparents said I wasn’t “good enough” to be a parent because I was too poor. But, really, her grandparents were molesting her.

            Also, the entire mental “health” system is pretty abusive itself. It can just be another abusive, cruel, dysfunctional family, but worse — because she was court-ordered to deal with the MH system.

          • Jesi Langdale

            This entire argument of the protests doesn’t make any sense anon. Why are you mad at people who are compassionately offering women who may be making a hasty decision (or worse being coerced to) to abort their child? These people offer women a choice, when what they hear at an abortion clinic is ‘this is the best thing you can do’. Really now? Guess what, I’m on the other side of the fence, I had an abortion. And I think of that woman every day saying that to me, “this is the best thing you can do’. How did she know me? How did she know what was best for me? And thank you but many many many women grieve over their abortions (I am one of them) and they are practically ignored by the same groups that tout themselves as ‘pro-woman’. You may know some who don’t , but there are many that do. And I am sorry, but when it comes to the biological and embryological facts, there is no difference between an ‘unwanted’ and ‘wanted’ child. The mother’s body produces the same hormones, and the baby develops the same way. You cannot speak for a woman who aborted vs. a woman who miscarries, while you may have your own horror story, it gives you *no no no no no no no* right to mess with others because you believe you hold some intelectual or social ground over them.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Many women (and esp. teens) going in for abortions have them because they are told things like this:

            from the mother: If you keep this baby you’re out of the house.

            from the boyfriend: if you abort this baby everything will be great and i’ll love you

            from society: we have no provisions to care for you and this child, you need to abort it,tough luck.

            from the clinic: there’s really nothing there, it’ll all be over soon. and, if you come backin a year saying you’re depressed and regretting the abortion, we’ll tell you you shouldn’t feel that way, and it’s probably something else.

            Face it, not all elective abortions are icing on the cake. Also, while a study done did show that 1-2 years later many women did not regret their abortions, another study done showed that 5 or so years after, many women suffered depression and symptoms of PTSD. It’s been a long standing knowledge in the field of psychology that the mental results of traumatic events tend to increase in severity over time.

          • Heather Parker

            The largest meta-analysis (evaluation 44 studies conducted over a 21 year period) on studies evaluating the possible mental health impact of abortion found that abortion does not increase the risk of mental illness. What does increase the risk of mental illness? Whether or not a pregnancy is wanted: http://aomrc.org.uk/publications/reports-a-guidance/doc_download/9432-induced-abortion-and-mental-health.html

        • Anonymous Queer

          “Why don’t you spend some time thinking about reversing your choice and lying on a table allowing an abortion doctor to rip your son apart, (don’t forget to imagine his face while you do this) suck him into a bottle and throw him in a hazardous waste receptacle. Would you miss your life with him? Can you honestly say that just because he passed through your vagina that that is the moment that he was human and had rights? Did you hate him while he was in your womb, but decide after 21 weeks to love him because he was somehow real after that? What was he before that? A blob of cells that would never amount to anything? Seriously, had your son been aborted before birth, would he have not been a real person? Maybe even now he is not a real person. After all, the only thing he accomplished was avoiding being aborted.”

          Also, I want to respond to this paragraph specifically.

          First, so much for asking people not to trigger me. Emotional blackmail FTW! And you’re talking about me maybe being “too zealous and abusive to those women and made them feel shameful”?

          Second, stop it. Unless you have been in my situation (Have you? Have you become pregnant from rape?) don’t you dare try to guilt me for a decision I didn’t even make. I actually have thought about what my life would’ve been like if I had an abortion.

          Currently, I’m living in an abusive and unhealthy situation. Without a child, I would be able to leave it because I wouldn’t have to worry about how I would house and clothe a child. I think about my rapist every damn day. My son has his nose. Mother’s and Father’s Day are both hell. I wonder if he has a family. My son has a as of yet undiagnosed medical issue. When we go to yet another specialist, I have to tell them – again – that I can only give them history from my side of the family, which means my son will be subjected to an extra battery of painful testing that would be unnecessary if they could rule out conditions from having paternal history. Have you ever had to wait by the phone to find out if your child has a rare form of cystic fibrosis? No? It’s fun!

          Does any of this mean I regret having him? No. But it DOES mean that not everything is peaches and cream. To be perfectly honest, I didn’t bond with him right away. I fed and changed and dressed and bathed him, but it took a little bit before I felt that heart-exploding mama love. So, to answer your question, while I didn’t hate him, I wasn’t bonded to him either. I DID think of him in terms of developmental stages – zygote, embryo, fetus – because it was easier for me to reconcile what was happening to my body. Rape has a funny way of making you dissociate you from your body like that. (And, since it seems to be a favorite response, yes, I was and am currently in counseling.)

          He was human when he was conceived by the virtue of having human DNA, but that does not mean he – or any other zygote, embryo or fetus – has the right to be in someones uterus if they don’t want them there. Fetuses become “persons” in the eyes of the law when they become autonomous from the body of the person carrying them. Whether or not the person carrying them wants to view them as a person before that is a personal decision.

          • Diana

            I just want to say again, that I am so very very very sorry. I am also so very grateful and thankful that your little boy is here — regardless of what age he is now.

            I also totally get the difficulty with bonding. I get EXACTLY what you mean when you say that you felt safer knowing that you at least could have chosen abortion, because this made you feel less violated, just knowing that.

            It made you feel that you at least mattered in some way.

            Do you know about Title IV – D? It is a federal program, designed to get child support for ALL kids — whether from marriage or out of marriage. They WILL ID the — biological parent (? not sure what language will be okay for you? Please excuse if I’ve not chosen well.)

            They can, do and will find out who the person is, and they can, do and will get child support and make sure you get it. — All for free.

            It is usually administered at the county level. It is NOT welfare, but maybe some of the same offices will be involved? Many of these people can be total jerks, I realize that. (My kids grew up in the projects, on food stamps and WIC.) Nevertheless — there are many nice people, too.

            I also wonder if you have any domestic abuse intervention in your area?? I think there are even 800 numbers.

            I also wonder if you have a counselor to talk things over with? I mean, a nice one, that you like and trust, who will really be of service the kind of service that YOU want and need?

            God bless, dear. (If you don’t believe in God, just substitute your preferred Higher Power.)

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            Diana,

            Thank you very much for your kind response. Even though it seems we are on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to the issue of abortion, compassion and understanding is always appreciated and accepted with open arms.

            As for child support, the perpetrator was a complete stranger, so I have no way of even beginning to track him down. I know all about the program – as a single parent who was out of work for a while, I was eligible for state assistance and as a requirement, they make you give them whatever information you have about your child’s biological parents so the state can go after them for child support. I couldn’t give them anything other than an ethnicity and a general description of a car. In all honesty, I don’t want to know who he is. He is a rapist, and many states allow rapists to sue for parental rights of children they conceive during commision of crimes. And there is no way in hell I would ever let that man get his hands on my child. Ever.

            But, again, thank you for the kindness. It is much appreciated.

      • Brendan

        What does your 5 year old child think when you tell him/her that you are glad you had the choice to kill them before they were born? Or have you not told them that yet? That may cause lots of emotional pain to them if they were told that.

        • Anonymous Queer

          When it is age-appropriate, I plan on telling my son how he was conceived and, that while I chose to carry him, others in my situation may not choose the same, and that is their absolute right.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Anon. Just so you know, having a child doesn’t give you some right or credibility on choosing to end the lives of other children. Face it. Abortion is not just a womens’ right ‘issue’. It is a deeply important social and ethical situation, and while it continues to be touted as an issue of ‘my body my choice’ or ‘like vs. dislike’, the real questions have yet to be asked, and there has yet to be any real discussion on the social level of abortion (at least any that has been taken seriously by ‘pro-choice’ side).

          • Anonymous Queer

            I don’t “choose” to end the lives of anyone else’s “children” – the choice for or against abortion is the choice of the pregnant person and no one else.

            And I agree that it’s an important social and ethical situation, and I find it extremely unethical to restrict the right to abortion, as life situations vary dramatically from person to person, and forcing someone to carry a pregnancy they don’t want or are not prepared to care for can have disastrous consequences for all involved – including the child.

            I’m not quite sure what you mean by “there has yet to be any real discussion on the social level of abortion.” I think I have been more than open here in my willingness to discuss various issues surrounding abortion. What exactly are you referring to when you say “the social level of abortion” and what would you like to discuss about it?

          • Jesi Langdale

            Anon, I don’t want to sound smug at all, but when you choose to accept abortion, you do choose to end the lives of children. Why is the term, ‘unborn child’ so offensive to you? According to biology and embryology, it’s a quite fitting term, and I don’t see it as a propaganda piece at all.

            I hear the argument a lot, of disastrous consequences, especially for unborn children who would be born into poverty or perhaps an abusive household even. Yet, for an illustration, let’s look at children in Somalia or Darfur. These are young children, babies essentially, two or three, living in the most utterly horrible conditions ever. Starvation, disease, death everywhere. Would you see it fit to ‘save’ them from their ‘horrible consequences’ by euthanizing them? Think of it, they wouldn’t have to live in squalor or starve any longer. And, their mothers would not have to work horrible hours and starve to try and feed their starving children.

            Of course, you will may have an objection to this. You may say, but the embryo/fetus isn’t a child, it isn’t as human as those humans, or as you or I. But, what constitutes the humanity of a human? This is the ‘social level’ question I am referring to. What actually constitutes that an unborn child has any less right or personhood than a newborn child?

            When I say that there have not been any discussions on this level, I mean very plainly that if I were to bring up this issue, I will normally be touted as ‘anti-choice’ ‘anti-woman’ ‘religious’ ‘bigoted’ or ‘rape-promoting’. Until we can have a serious discussion on the ethical ramifications of ending a human’s life, it hasn’t been taken as seriously as it should, ethically, philosophically or politically.

            For a further illustration, see Nancy Pelosi’s ‘answer’ to the reporter that asked her the question what is different from what Gosnell did and what other late term abortionists do, other than the place of killing the child?

          • Jesi Langdale

            What I am essentially getting at is that the question of the fate of the unborn child as a candidate member of our society shouldn’t be something that we assume is left up to the woman, it should be society as a whole that is discussing this and looking at the (IMO shaky) ethical grounds of abortion

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            Only, “society as a whole” is not the one carrying the pregnancy, going through labor and delivery or raising the child (with all the emotional, physical and financials commitments that entails) once it is born…

      • KA

        Than you for sharing your opinions with gentleness and kindness. Even though I completely disagree with your stance and reasons for being pro-choice I can still see your heart. You have attempted to answer everyone’s questions and done so with a gentleness that most who asked the questions or responded to your posts have not.

        It broke my heart to read that you were raped. What a nightmare…my worst fear (for myself or my daughter). I can’t begin to imagine the trauma you went through. And then to make the tough decision to carry AND parent your child. Impressive! Even though I am completely pro-life, I understand that the option to abort your baby was available to you and for you to choose to keep your baby and raise your child is admirable. I wish the best for you and your child!!

        Like I stated before, I am pro-life. I believe life begins at conception. I believe it is murder to abort a baby. However, I have many friends and family members who have had abortions and the ONLY response that I believe is right and acceptable is to embrace them with love and kindness. I have seen the guilt destroy them. I have seen the adverse medical problems they now have as a result of abortions. I see how (the ones who now have children) make every parenting decision (good and bad) as a result of the guilt they have buried in them from the abortions. There is no denying the emotional torment they struggle with every single day post abortion.

        That is why I believe the ONLY response is to love them and to accept them and help them (through God’s word and the blood of Jesus) forgive themselves.

        So even though I am pro-life, I am not a hater who condemns and who looks down on others who disagree with me. Even though I am pro-life, you will not see me demonstrating in front of an abortion clinic. Even though I am pro-life, you will not see me get in a heated debate/argument with someone over our differences. I will instead by through the grace of God try to show with love and kindness that this “fetus” is a living human being that God created and loves (not matter the circumstance of his/her conception) and that God has a wonderful plan for his/her life (just like He does for your sweet child). And for those who I talk to who have had abortions I try to comfort, love, accept and understand that I need forgiveness from my Savior just as much as they do. No sin is greater than another…some only have greater consequences.

        I kind of got off point here…my purpose in responding to your post was to say that I am thankful for the kindness you showed in the way you wrote your response and that I am so very sorry for the horrible way you conceived your child but I am so amazed that you chose life and I am so very happy that you made that difficult decision. God bless you!

        • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

          Thank you for your kindness. Even though we are on opposite sides of the debate, kindness is always appreciated.

          It’s funny you mention guilt. I often wonder how many people would feel LESS guilty if they didn’t have people TELLING them they needed forgiveness or calling them murderers or telling them that the embryo they aborted at 7 weeks felt “excruciating pain as it was being ripped limb from limb” (something which is not at all supported by medical science). (This is not directed at you, just in general.)

    • Joseph Benigno

      Your philosophy in life “What matters is that people have the fundamental right to decide how they want their body to be used” is questionable. This way of thinking is tantamount to saying that giving yourself to prostitution is right because that is what you would like your body to be used. You have the right to decide how you want your body to be used but not to be extent of killing an unborn, helpless, innocent baby who cannot defend him/her self and is not suppose to bear the penalty of the sin of his/her rapist father. You cannot make wrong right by committing another wrong. People who maltreat their dogs are even penalized, I just cannot understand why it is right to kill the innocent life of an unborn baby all because of the so called fundamental right of a person to decide how you want your body to be used when it is wrong to maltreat an animal. The baby inside your womb has his/her own body and life so dependent for your protection and care. The only difference with your brother or sister is the fact that your sister was already born while the baby inside your womb is still waiting for the right time to be born. Your guilty conscience will always follow you all throughout your life if you are going to kill your unborn baby in your womb. And this is what the Bible says against murderers–Rev. 21:8.

  • Cathryn Parke

    Sierra, You have a beautiful story and a beautiful life. God is smiling down on you because you understand why life is to be lived and you are living it to the full. I hope and pray that you become stronger and God gives you more and more wisdom to help those people who are led astray and are trying to find their way. I am so proud of you that at your age you GET IT! May the Lord greatly bless you, your family, your children and your passion to reach those who need truth. You are so Special. The truth is marching on….. Praise the Lord!!!

  • 4joachim

    Nice Work
    God Bless

  • Jesi Langdale

    Wow! So wonderful! I’ve had this same struggle, as almost all of my friends and family are pro-choice, but I’m really not worried anymore, because to me, this is a huge human rights issue, and people need to be informed of the facts. My story is a lot like yours, except when I was 19, I ‘chose’ to not keep my baby. Technically it was more like strange coercion from family and ‘doctors’, mixed with untrue statements, like ‘It’s only a clump of cells or tissue yet, not a baby.’ when I was 7 weeks pregnant. But, here I am now, with a two year old son! And I’ve vowed to use my experience as a way to reach others. Thanks for sharing this!

    • Sara

      Why did you choose to have an abortion? I hear a lot of stories like yours where after it was done, it was a huge regret and caused severe emotional trauma and so on and so forth. Were you afraid you could not raise it maybe alone or were you not in a good place in life or financially? Do you speak out against it now (even though you at least still had a choice) because you think that others will come to regret the decision if they do? I guess for me personally, you still were given the choice vs. being told “forget it, suck it up, and deal with it.” Thank you in advance for anything you are willing to share.

      • Jesi Langdale

        Sara, I chose to have an abortion because I was told that the 7 week old embryo inside of me was ‘just tissue’ and not a living thing. I was also told that I had no chance at any bright future if I stayed pregnant. Pretty much, I was lied to. I definitely speak out against abortion, and here’s why:

        I came to the biological truth that an embryo is alive and is a human.

        Yet, I was still pro-choice.

        Then, I came to the philosophical dilemma, if an embryo/fetus is alive, and is human, is the issue not when life begins, but when we believe it matters?

        Then, I found this quote from Ann Furedi,executive of the largest independent abortion provider in the UK, said during a debate: “

        • Sara

          Thank you for replying to my questions in a respectful manner. I appreciate you taking the time to answer this. To be honest I guess I just don’t like the terms then “Pro-Life” and “Pro-Choice”. I think in most cases I would myself choose life but I can also respect that another woman’s decision is hers to make as are the consequences. To be honest I think what I oppose most is pro-life advocates coming into the picture screaming “murderer” and other non pleasant words at women who are already confused and scared about the situation they are in. If more people spoke like yourself and another gentleman on here that I was talking to, then maybe people like me would not be so offended by what we see from the pro-life advocates on the street who look like they are so ready to pounce and judge versus talking softly and possibly rationally with women. Just my point of view.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Sara,

            I agree. I do not like pro-life protesters who attack women. Women are as much victims of abortion as their children. My problem is with abortion being touted as some ‘women’s rights’ issue, when in my mind it clearly is not. It is an ethical issue. Are embryos and fetuses persons? In my opinion they are, because all humans, regardless of age, gender, thought capacity or size ARE persons, who deserve to live. There are MANY pro-life persons who do not attack women, such as Feminists for Life, who authored the essay I sent your way. It’s my sincere hope though that you will change your mind on this issue, regardless of the people who use it (on both sides i’ll say too…) as a way to push a religious or political agenda, but that you will see it as a human rights injustice in the name of ‘convenience’ or in the name of eugenic ideas like ‘babies are better off not being born poor, or with downs syndrome, etc.”

          • Diana

            Yes, I get so tired of that.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Watch this debate, this guy puts forth a very good point in terms of ethical viewpoint of abortion. Just skip ahead to 3:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSH0Lj_a6c8

          • gary s.

            What?? Of course it’s murder!! unpleasant words? Are You Kidding Me?? What’s pleasant about the taking of HUMAN LIFE?? Oh, Did I hurt your feelings? Too bad lefties as these babies come first NOT your feelings!! Oh how dumb you are!!(OOPS! I mean Misguided) Don’t want to hurt your feelings! GOOD LORD What a Evil World we live in! Hurt feelings??

          • lroy77

            You know, my own mother was 19 when she had me. I don’t even know who my father is other than he was 23 and in the service (“allegedly”), my mother was unmarried, and didn’t tell HER mother about me until the day I was born. But I am convinced that if abortion was legal in 1962 I would not typing this now. That’s why I take pro-life very personally. I was adopted at birth. Try being raised by parents 31-33 years OLDER than you.

          • Jesi Langdale

            I think the problem Gary, is that women are victims of abortion too. They’re being used for a political agenda, the blind leading the blind. Screaming murder at them isn’t going to change minds. Follow the example of Save the Storks. Promote love and help to these women who don’t know they even have a choice and are mostly being lied to.

          • gary s.

            jesi look im not a hater but how long do we say nice& sweet things when over NINE MILLION BABIES are KILLED? Please tell me!! When Do We Say ENOUAGH is ENOUAGH?? When Jesi, When??

          • Jesi Langdale

            i agree gary it is sad and horrific but being cruel and reactionary will not change a pro-abortion persons’ mind. It will not change the mind of a woman walking into a clinic, why would she go with a man screaming murderer at her? We must be level headed in our arguments, and save our passion for our discussions with one another, lest we look like a bunch of screaming idiots to those who we are trying to logically outwit on the rational ground that abortion is unethical.

          • AlkalineBill

            God is love! Hate and anger will never change things. Always approach someone in a difficult situation with love. I f they are open to scripture, use scripture, if not, use love.

          • http://eastsidehunky.wordpress.com/ EastSideHunky

            Sara:
            You are correct. It is pro-life and pro-abortion, “Choice” is an intentionally vague and questionable label the opposition crafted in the 1960s (see Dr Nathanson’s insider exposes). Take your statement above and insert “slavery” where “choice or abortion” are and you can see how incredulous it sounds.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Yes! Exactly, this is what I tell everyone who I talk about abortion with. The pro-abort side marginalizes our entire standpoint by just making it an issue of ‘like or dislike’. Would we do the same about slavery? Of course not, so why are we doing this with human beings, especially the most innocent ones, just small babies in the womb.

          • Adam Peter Conroy

            Yes. Very true…they say “choice” but what choice?

          • Didaskalos

            Former Director of Planned Parenthood Abby Johnson says, “. . . I think constantly having a constant vigil outside of an abortion clinic is vital, not just for the men and women going into Planned Parenthood or the abortion facility, but also for the clinic workers. Having people out there, allowing people that are going in to see there’s a group of people out here that are praying, it really pricks the conscience of everybody walking in. And so that’s very effective. And also in my experience, I saw that any time you brought a member of the clergy out in front of the clinic, that was particularly effective. I think any time you’re going to talk to people, as long as you’re being compassionate, as long as you’re being open and you have resources available for people that are going in, they’re going to be more inclined to talk to you.”

          • Jesi Langdale

            Yeah! Also, I really appreciate groups like Save the Storks, who really help the women.

          • Jennifer Peterson

            That’s a catchy name for a group. :-)

          • Diana

            I have never seen anybody “screaming murder” at any abortion clinic protest or demonstration. I’m starting to think this is a myth.

            I am an abortion clinic protester, and I’ve seen a few in other states, as well. I have never experienced these things that pro-aborts claim. In my city, we are not allowed to raise our voices, or speak to anyone directly, or step onto private property.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Diana,

            It’s good that you haven’t done that, but I have seen it done. I think all protesters should take Save the Storks example tho, and start employing ways to offer sonograms to women. I don’t think the signs do much for people, but offering women another choice will.

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            I know this was not in direct reply to me, but I do have to say that not all sidewalk protesters follow the rules. I used to be a clinic escort, and there were many times I would have to insert myself between “chasers” and patients. One woman was especially aggressive. She would run after patients, crowd so close to them they would be forced off the sidewalk in an attempt to get away, try to shove literature into their purses or cars or under their windshield wipers after they had repeatedly asked her to leave them alone. Friends at other clinics had protesters who would crowd around cars as they entered parking lots, yelling at doctors and patients alike. I don’t even dare type the things they said – they are that vile. Seriously, if you want stories, ask the clinic escorts. We have dozens of them, all of which would curl your toes.

            And this was in a major city in a solidly blue state that has had a “bubble zone” ordinance in effect for YEARS.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Anon, I agree these people get a bit cray, and also they’re not helping anyone. Groups like Save the Storks offer more women more choices, and with compassion and facts, not coercion. The thing that bothers me is that groups like Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-hHoice America call these groups ‘anti-choice’. Why? Aren’t they offering more choices to these women?

          • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

            I am going to answer all your comments in one place since it is getting a bit overwhelming to jump around to all the different comments you are replying to…

            1. In response to this comment: I actually hate Save the Storks AND many of the mainstream pro-choice groups. For Save the Storks, they completely remove the pregnant person from the picture. Literally. Every bit of their propaganda has happy little storks flying around, like babies magically appear out of thin air. It reeks of misogyny and I cringe every time I think about it. Plus, I’m sorry, but women don’t need one-time sonograms. They need real, tangible help. They need health care and food and housing and child care and clothing and emotional support and financial support and education and job training and placement. Unless your organization provides that, I hate to be blunt, but you’re not helping anyone.

            I also really dislike a lot of the mainstream pro-choice groups. Abortion rights are important, I’m not trying to say otherwise, but as I believe I have said elsewhere in this discussion, being “pro-choice” encompasses a lot more than just abortion rights. It means supporting whatever choice a pregnant person can make, even if you don’t agree with that choice or it’s not the choice you would make for yourself. A lot of us in the movement use the term “reproductive justice” because it emcompasses more than just the right to abortion and birth control: http://www.sistersong.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141&Itemid=81

            2. This comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-937757636

            The term “unborn child” is not at all offensive to me. Why is the term “fetus” offensive to you?

            As for the rest of your comment, I am going to have to ask you to stop. You’ve repeatedly used people of color as your token examples and that is not okay. People in Darfur and Somalia do not exist to be used as examples in debate. They are living, breathing people and their suffering is not your bargaining chip. From here on out, if you can’t make your point without using them to illustrate it, you’re not getting a response. The end.

            3. This comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-938321732

            Sorry for the caps. I’m not yelling. I tend to type like I would talk. And since I can’t bold things, the caps are simply meant to be a word I would emphasize were I to be speaking instead of typing.

            “Awareness” and “reflex” are two different things and involve two different areas of brain function. For example, even people in comas display reflex movements. Same with fetuses. I won’t go into huge detail because it’s late and I’m exhausted, but science has actually studied fetal brain waves pretty extensively and found that, while in utero, fetus are largely in a sleep-like state. It’s one of the reasons we say that fetuses can’t feel pain until late in gestation – pain processing requires an awareness level we just haven’t found in fetuses. You can check out these links for more: http://bit.ly/129V7Sa http://slidesha.re/129V9tq http://bit.ly/11jXC9d

            Also, there is a HUGE difference between being physically dependent and socially dependent. A newborn may be cared for by other – a fetus, on the other hand, is solely dependent on me.

            And, really, if you ask one more time if it’s ethical to kill a born human, this conversation is going to be over. I’ve repeatedly stated that that there is a huge difference between someone killing your born child against your will and a person who chooses to have an abortion. It’s also somewhat irrelevant, as the medical facts are really just the icing on my pro-choice cake. The reason that I will forever and always be pro-choice is that I believe that all people have a fundamental right to control who and what they allow to have access to their body. And, as I have previously said, since the pregnant person owns the body that the fetus is dependant upon, they are the one who gets to decide what happens to it. As a survivor of rape and abuse, I couldn’t be more passionate about the subject of bodily autonomy if I tried. In all the medical evidence I have been presented with, I have not yet been convinced that a fetus is aware of what is happening to it during an abortion. Not even when it “grimaces” or “pulls away.” The pregnant person, on the other hand, is very aware, and knows exactly what is happening.

            4. This comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-938329943

            I’m angry because I have never, not once seen it done in “compassion.” I have seen women being called murders. I have seen women and their partners being pushed off of sidewalks into busy city streets trying to escape sidewalk counselors. I have seen protesters kick clinic owners in the face. I have heard them use vile, racist language that I dare not even repeat. I have heard them condemn a woman to hell not knowing that the woman was there to get her dead fetus (who was a very wanted pregnancy) removed from her womb. I have seen them talk a homeless, drug-addicted mother out of an abortion with promises of “help,” only to throw her a couple of cans of formula and some diapers and send her on her merry way. (She later came back for an abortion, because she realized they weren’t going to help her and that she was in no situation to raise a child.)

            When I went to a CPC after I found out I pregnant, the counselor there blamed me for my own rape, and then offered me my “options” – giving my baby up for adoption to a couple who could raise it “right” since I was poor and obviously had crappy judgment. I mean, just look at the mess I was in now! The option of parenting was never given to me by this supposedly “pro-life” group. I was nothing more than an incubator to them.

            I am sorry you grieve over your abortion. I have said several times through this thread that my heart aches for those who grieve after their abortions and that I hope they can find the peace and healing they deserve. And (guess what?!) it’s ANOTHER issue I have with the mainstream pro-choice movement that they don’t tout their after-abortion counselling services better. Because they do exist – Exhale Pro-Voice, the Abortion Care Network, Backline…Heck, some Planned Parenthoods provide counseling.

            I never claimed I held any intellectual or social ground over anyone, so I’m not sure why you’re so defensive or angry with me. I stated my opinion – how is that “messing” with anyone? Also, how do you know I’ve never had an abortion or miscarried? You sure are assuming a lot about me.

            5. This comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-938331264

            Yes, and as I have previously stated, pressuring someone into an abortion is just as wrong as pressuring them out of one.

            Also, as someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD, please don’t lecture me on the effects of traumatic events over time. I would also like to see this study where the effects of abortion weren’t felt until years after the abortion. If it was the Broen study, I’ve read it, and it was methodically flawed. Here’s a paper that describes why, and refutes that claim: http://bit.ly/17tFFtm

            6. This comment: http://liveactionnews.org/my-coming-out-story/#comment-937713598

            I know this one was not directed specifically at me, but I couldn’t resist. I love being called a pro-abort right after a pro-life’r says we’re the ones who marginalize their entire standpoint.

            *sings* Irony!

            I identify as “pro-choice” because I (and every other pro-choice’r I’ve met) believes in exactly that – choice. This includes the choice to parent, abort the pregnancy, or make an adoption. I’ll say it until I am blue in the face – “pro-choice” means you support whatever choice a person makes about their pregnancy, even if you don’t agree, or it’s not the choice you would make for yourself.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            Some observations:

            – You sure like coming up with excuses to end conversations with people who ask pointed questions you can’t adequately refute.

            – Awareness and pain are noteworthy for determining how cruel a particular murder might be, but they’re not moral dividing lines between acceptable killings and unacceptable ones. Bob could kill Joe painlessly in his sleep, and it would still be evil.

            – Dependency/”viability” is even less morally decisive. In most subject other than abortion, we consider the “might makes right” ethos atrocious.

            – My condolences for your rape, but it’s always sickening to see a victim of violence use her victimization as an excuse to subject other innocent, defenseless victims to violence.

            – I don’t believe any of your accusations against sidewalk demonstrators and crisis pregnancy centers. Sorry. Not a word. Crusading for the power to execute one’s own offspring is a huge ethical line to cross, against which lying pales in comparison, and defamation campaigns have been extensively documented to be standard operating procedure on the Left generally and in the pro-choice movement in particular.

            – “Pro-choice” will never ring true as a sanitized label for advocating the power to deprive one’s young of an entire lifetime of choices.

          • Kajal Deepak

            Wow…THANK YOU for remembering that women have rights too. That the use of our bodies for ANYTHING: sex, gestation, labor or anything else, even to save lives, can only be by our permission.
            Nobody is forcibly taking blood to save lives, or bone marrow, or organs (even after death). In fact, a homeless man freezing to death in a blizzard does not even have the right to take shelter in a rich man’s mansion!! So much for “pro-life”
            The whole “pro-life” label is fake. There is no argument for the “right to life” not be prioritized over rights in any other situation, but when it comes to a woman’s body, even the POSSIBILITY of a life must be prioritized over her rights? It is not pro-life, it is just misogynistic and unfortunately there are as many women fooled as men.

            Either the right to life is, or it isn’t. How can it only exist in one situation (when a woman’s body is involved)?

            The real question for “pro-lifers” is this:
            Are you about saving lives, or about persecuting sex? If your primary argument is saving of a life, then it shouldn’t matter why a life needs to be saved. And if your agenda is persecuting sex, then don’t be surprised that everybody sees through it, except those of us who have really dense skulls

            Thank you, Anonymous, for acknowledging that women, too, have rights in the “land of the free”

          • TruthTour

            You are absolutely right! I have never seen these fictitious “murder-screamers” that pro-aborts rant about. In fact, I have personally experienced just the opposite. While I was praying outside a clinic, some livid pro-abort screamed out of his car to me that it was my fault one driver almost crashed into another!The pro-aborts already lie(“that thing is a blob of tissue”), cheat(a mother out of her child) and steal(billions from tax-payers to kill unborn human beings) from women. What would stop them from inventing things to push their agenda? It is the pro-aborts that are rude, wicked and nasty. After all, they support, tooth and nail, the KILLING of unborn human beings.

        • lroy77

          How can an fetus not be alive. If the embryo wasn’t alive at conception, then the cells would not be able to split from one to two to four to eight, etc. It takes a LIVING person (albeit unborn) to do that.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Exactly! When people are faced with this fact they then have to then assume when human life beings to matter. And I believe it is very apparent that the embryo/fetus does matter as much as a newborn or you or me, that their life has value as a person. But, we humans have been taking away the value of other humans for years, we find it so easy to not value those that cannot be heard.

          • Jennifer Peterson

            Recently, I attempted to ponder the beginning of life through the lens of an atheist or agnostic viewpoint. What came to mind was a chemical equation of the DNA from egg and sperm. You know what? Number one, the resulting chemical reaction is a stunningly beautiful product that is unrepeatable (except in the case of identical twins). Number two, don’t tell me God didn’t have a hand in this. ;-)

        • Diana

          You are an amazingly intelligent young person. Thanks for the links, also. Very informative. God bless.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Thank you Diana. I don’t see myself as intelligent as much as I see myself as just informed, and willing to look past political agendas. I was lucky to be homeschooled in the socratic method. And before anyone attacks my homeschooling as religious in any way, I was raised agnostic, and was agnostic until last November.

        • 441019

          So true–it is not a matter of liking or disliking, but a matter of right vs. wrong. I believe that doing wrong, in the end, never leads to happiness, and that doing what is right, leads to happiness, in the end.

          This is not exactly the same subject, but as a teenager, I lost a boyfriend because I didn’t believe in premarital sex (and he did). It was very difficult because I was in love with him. He was my first boyfriend. But I probably would have been miserable in the long run, because he was a very self-centered person.

        • Pam

          Jesi, I was told all those things as well. I was 18 and the Planned Parenthood counselor took me in the back and told me I was too young to have a baby and my future would be ruined. Then she gave me a list of abortion providers and told me the sooner I got it done the less expensive it would be. My family also urged me to have an abortion.

          I didn’t abort my son, however. My son is the reason I am pro-life. I also agree with your moral stance. I suspect we are not the only two women who were lied to. How many women tragically live with guilt over their decision because they were lied to? The pro-abortionists want women to have a choice, but not an informed choice. If you would have had actual counseling or maybe an ultra sound the outcome would have been different for you.

          I respect your courage for speaking out now. I hope, along with you, that telling the truth will save other women from a tragic decision that cannot be undone.

          God Bless

  • Sue Sanderson

    Sierra, you are wise beyond your age. I would like to encourage you to continue to reachout with your view…and prepare your heart for assault from those that disagree. If you’d like my encouragement, check out my blog meant to help Christ-followers see God’s Big Picture and be a part of it!

    http://www.hisbigpictureview.com/sidetracked/

  • Sue Sanderson

    Sierra, you are wise beyond your age. I would like to encourage you to continue to reachout with your view…and prepare your heart for assault from those that disagree. If you’d like my encouragement, check out my blog meant to help Christ-followers see God’s Big Picture and be a part of it!

    http://www.hisbigpictureview.com/sidetracked/

    • sierra

      Thanks Sue! I’ll check it out!

  • Sierra

    I wanted to add That again my parents have really embraced Travis and James. They did come around eventually around my wedding and I am so grateful. They are loving grandparents and even though they don’t agree with me they love me unconditionally like all parents should. So with that, I am thankful.

  • Mary

    Thanks, Sierra ! James is a beautiful little boy ! Thanks for standing up for life. I pray you will continue to trust in the Lord and His goodness !

  • Yeah yeah yeah christ is in me

    “I know that those pictures of aborted children aren’t Photoshopped. ” What about Baby VOLDEMORT?

  • Ray Nelson

    I applaud Sierra for standing for what she believed in. JESUS said in Matthew 10:37 “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me”. Your mom and dad can surely NOW see what Sierra could not make them see prior. Your son, James, is a blessing from GOD and should be looked at as such!!

  • Merrie Spencer Rancourt

    Thank you, Sierra. I wish I had had your faith, strength, and courage 40 years ago.

  • Kat

    Good for you honey! I remember when I got pregnant at 17 and my father told me to have an abortion. It was one of the most hurtful things he has ever said to me in my 27 years of life. So, no I didn’t abort my now beautiful 9 year old daughter and I thank God all the time that I chose life.

    • Tonya

      What you did took a lot of courage at the age of 17 and for that, I applaud you. God bless you. :)

  • Ed DeMatteo

    God bless you Sierra and thank you for sharing your story. I never quite “came out” but did go through a transformation from pro-choice to pro-life thanks to Jesus. The bible is clear, but I also depend on good science as you stated. I wrote about it here: http://liveactionnews.org/the-logic-cop-says-its-a-human-baby/

  • Tom Quiner

    The term “outing” is more than appropriate, it is powerful and totally honest. Liberals tend to embrace a different religion, Secular Humanism, which embraces human abortion as one of their sacraments. To “out” yourself to your own family knowing the pushback you were going to get took guts. May God bless you for your courage.

  • Mayhemgrrl

    So you got pregnant at 17 thru pre-marital sex. I think the bible is clear on that issue too. Just sayin’.

    • Bert_1

      And? Pre-marital sex is indeed a sin but what does that have to do with abortion? Fix one sin by committing a worse one? Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. For that matter, while the act that led up to the conception was sinful, the conception itself was completely, totally, unreservedly ensconced in the Hands of God.

      • Mayhemgrrl

        I’m not saying “fix” one sin; I’m saying if you’re a Christian, and she was before pregnancy, you can’t pick and choose which tenants you decide to be a “Christian warrior” about. How is this an “inspirational” story? It’s okay to have sex before marriage at 17 and get pregnant? Why do you think people GET abortions? Maybe we wouldn’t need them if people followed God’s rules about NOT having premarital sex in the first place in the first place. And Bert_1, there was only ONE conception that was “completely, totally, and unreservedly” in the hands of God. The rest of them take two *people*.

        • Bert_1

          I respectfully but emphatically disagree with you. *EVERY* conception, bar none, is in the Hands of God. True, Jesus’ conception was miraculous and Mary’s conception was Immaculate, but ALL are in the Hands of God.
          Regardless, how can you justify an abortion based upon the sinfulness of the parents? Abortion for convenience is the epitome of egocentricity and can never be justified. God created a human being that you are destroying through abortion.

          • mrteachersir

            Mayhemgrrl is not arguing for abortion. “She” is arguing that there is a connection between sex and abortion. She is most definitely correct on this one. The decline of sexual mores is directly proportional with the increase of abortion. The reason why many people argue for abortion is because it is a means of enabling them to engage in illicit sexual activity.

          • Bert_1

            I was responding more to her assertion that conception is NOT in the Hands of God. I agree that the decline in moral values has a direct impact on the incidence of abortion both because of the increased number of pregnancies and because of the low value people place on human life in general. That doesn’t change my argument about conception, though.

    • sierra

      Yes. Please go on about how perfect of a human being you are and how you have NEVER committed a sin. *eyeroll I also said earlier that I’m actually taking being a Christian seriously now. I realize that sex before marriage is a sin. There is this awesome thing you can do with God. Its called asking for forgiveness. And I did end up pregnant but God had to get my attention SOMEHOW?! I’m not trying to encourage that at all. Intact that’s not the point of this post at all. I’m saying, its okay to be prolife. Its okay to be a Christian. And you DON’T have to silent about either. Because again we are all in this together and the more vocal people the better.

      • Kelly

        I became pregnant through pre marital sex at 17 as well. Thank God for his mercy, grace and forgiveness! I would not be who and where I am today without my son. What a blessing it is that God turns everything for the good for those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose!

  • Sara

    I will say this much…I would never choose abortion for myself personally but I will not infringe upon another woman’s right to do so within reason. I will also take a more societal approach in my argument in that I will turn pro-life when all the pro-lifers come forward and offer to provide both physical, emotional, and financial support to the millions of babies that would have otherwise been aborted and/or unwanted for whatever reason. It is easy to tell a woman that she cannot do something but then you get to then wipe your hands clean of anything that happens to her after she decides to keep the baby. You want to have all the babies saved, then prepare to pay more in taxes to help provide that support.

    • Calvin Freiburger

      In other words, you’re trying to blackmail pro-lifers with the lives of innocent babies. “You pay up, or I get to kill my son or daughter.” Pathetic.

      • Sara

        No not at all. My problem is that I CARE too much. I CARE about the welfare of children who could be born to child abusers or molesters and I tear up EVERY single time I see the local news reporting on the death of another young child at the hands of his or her parent who strangled them to death or didn’t feed them or beat the living crap out of them until they died. Which is more humane, to let them die before they exit the womb or subject them to that form of torture for months or years?! I’ll take my chances and pick the first option. Plus, for hard core pro lifers I hardly doubt I can “blackmail” them anyways. I love my sons more than life itself so please don’t try to peg me as some sick radical hell bent on killing innocent babies. When I can tell you when to get a vasectomy because I feel like it and because I disagree with your life or the way of living it or how you raise your children or otherwise, then maybe you can dictate to complete strangers when they cannot get an abortion.

        • Calvin Freiburger

          “My problem is that I CARE too much. I CARE about the welfare of children who could be born to child abusers or molesters”

          Wow. You must have an astonishingly low opinion of pro-choice women if you really believe so many annual abortions are had by would-be child molesters and beaters.

          “I tear up EVERY single time I see the local news reporting on the death of another young child at the hands of his or her parent who strangled them to death or didn’t feed them or beat the living crap out of them until they died.”

          That’s odd. It must only be the method of killing that gets to you, considering you’re defending when a parent has the exact same thing done by lethal injection, chemical suffocation, or dismemberment, decapitation, or stabbing by sharp implements.

          “I’ll take my chances and pick the first option.”

          This is just sick. You’re not “taking YOUR chances.” You’re taking babies’ chances away.

          “When I can tell you when to get a vasectomy because I feel like it and because I disagree with your life or the way of living it or how you raise your children or otherwise…”

          A vasectomy doesn’t KILL ANYONE ELSE. Do you have any arguments for abortion that *aren’t* stupid and dishonest?

          • Sara

            For being the MOD I hoped to have a more positive interaction with you instead of having you go against the rules of this forum which are something along the lines of being respectful among other things. But I will rise to these remarks. I don’t have a low opinion of pro choice women. I don’t even have a low opinion of the 90% of women who get an abortion that also identify with being a member of any one of the large religious groups. Those same groups who happen to believe, rather fervently it seems, that abortion is murder. I don’t judge their choices because it is not my place to.

            You really do a good job at making people out to be sadists. I have seen aborted babies too and cry for them as well but again, it is not up to me to judge what another woman decided to do since I am not in her shoes. I can cry/feel pity and empathy for many types of people in many places.

            What do YOU have to contribute to the babies chances that you yourself want to so fervently save? Are you going to provide for it? Are you going to take care of it in every way possible or are you just so against it and can sleep at night thinking that any child who has not been aborted is living in some wonderful perfect place with loving parents in a cozy home. You don’t know what would happen to those children any more than I do.

            If Arizona has their way, as long as an egg drops and the two weeks before intercourse even happens, then that egg is viable so by getting a vasectomy in essence you are keeping that egg from being viable hence killing it. I love that Arizona knows when I’m going to get pregnant based on the first day after my period ends before I even know whether I will have sex or not. This is how ridiculous this has gotten.

            Do you have any way of talking to people that isn’t disrespectful or rude?! People like me get on here (put ourselves in the lion’s den if you will) to put our thoughts and ourselves out here in a sincere and respectful manner and try to meet and talk these serious issues over with people like you in order to somehow understand one another and maybe come to a common ground. All you can do is resort to bullying. I don’t find my remarks stupid or dishonest. The stupid is a matter of opinion, the dishonest is a matter of fact. What was I ever dishonest about?

            Maybe you should rise to the occasion and answer my questions now as to 1. Why you think a woman who has an abortion is any of your business? (News flash: Humans kill other humans all the time in wars, etc. but you probably are not a sincere humanitarian in those circumstances either and would not put them on trial…all of our servicemen and women for murder or would you?)

            2. Do you feel you have some moral grounds or authority to save women from having abortions?

            3. Can you (or not) recognize that people will have differing viewpoints then you even down to the smallest detail (whether a 4 week embryo vs. a 20 week fetus is a viable thing or not?)

            For me personally, I don’t think it should be called pro choice and pro life because it makes it out that it is an all or nothing thing for every situation and it isn’t. If you are for abortions no matter what the circumstances, then I hope you never have a daughter who gets severely raped and knocked up by it. I hope you don’t have to deal with the husband who lost his wife in a country where abortions are not allowed for ANY reason even when the baby was dead and they refused to remove it from her body and the mother DIED as well.

            I try to be a reasonable, just and moral person and help out those when I am able. That is what defines me and who I am. I’m truly sorry for you if you cannot at least see the points I am trying to make here today.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            “I don’t have a low opinion of pro choice women.”

            But that’s the implication of your argument that we need abortion to spare kids beatings, molestation, etc. The only scenario in which we could even begin to take it seriously is if the homes of a majority of aborted babies would have been born into were abusive or criminally negligent. Otherwise, it’s just a cheap attempt to protect abortion generally by exploiting the most extreme outliers.

            It is the height of thoughtless arrogance to presume you know what children’s lives wouldn’t be worth living, and to decide for them that they shouldn’t even get the chance to try. How dare you?

            “I have seen aborted babies too and cry for them as well but again, it is not up to me to judge what another woman decided to do since I am not in her shoes.”

            That’s the exact same logic as saying the following: “I have seen enslaved blacks and cry for them as well, but again, it is not up to me to judge what another plantation owner decided to do since I am not in his shoes.” Doesn’t quite sound so feel-good that way, does it?

            “that egg is viable so by getting a vasectomy in essence you are keeping that egg from being viable hence killing it.”

            It’s depressing how many people say biologically illiterate things like this and think they’re making a serious point. All it really shows is that you don’t have nearly the grasp of embryology that it takes to make responsible decision about abortion. Individual sperm and eggs are not distinct human beings; genetically and functionally they are parts of the people they come from. When those two join together in fertilization, they create an entirely new being.

            “Do you have any way of talking to people that isn’t disrespectful or rude?! [...] What was I ever dishonest about?”

            Sure. But supporting abortion is not a respectable view. Your presumption to decide which babies don’t deserve a chance at life is not moral. And pretending not to know what the big difference is between vasectomies and abortions is not honest.

            “Why you think a woman who has an abortion is any of your business?”

            For the same reason it’s my business when a woman chooses to drown her three-year-old in a tub.

            “Humans kill other humans all the time in wars, etc.”

            You’re not seriously trying to tell me you see no difference between killing a criminal or enemy soldier to save lives, and killing an innocent, harmless baby for whatever reason a mother wants….are you?

            “Do you feel you have some moral grounds or authority to save women from having abortions?”

            Uh, yeah, it’s called protecting the innocent from violence.

            “Can you (or not) recognize that people will have differing viewpoints then you even down to the smallest detail”

            Of course I can. That doesn’t mean I have to respect viewpoints that are immoral, irresponsible, or illogical.

            “I try to be a reasonable, just and moral person and help out those when I am able.”

            Except for the ones who are most helpless. Them you’re actively working against, papered over by a disgusting rationalization that dying is for their own good.

          • Sara

            Wow. You’ve left me completely speechless and that is hard to do. I’ve had wonderful conversations on here with two other people. Both of which do not strike me as the type who are so far to the right as what you appear to be. I can’t help but feel that you are the type of person who would go to all lengths to scream “murderer” at a scared woman who was contemplating an abortion. I’m sorry that you view me as the bane of our awful society and part of the problem and not the solution. I’m signing out now. More people would probably listen to your jargon if you put on an empathetic front versus “I’m a he-man and warrior of God type that condemns all before me”. Have a wonderful night and please don’t try to blow up any abortion clinics or doctors in the name of your “crusade”.

          • Calvin Freiburger

            I responded to your every point, and gave reasons for my assessment of your arguments and principles. Apparently you can’t back up your own logic; otherwise you would have explained what’s so horrible about my comments, rather than hysterically exaggerating it. That you end with the slanderous suggestion that I’d blow up abortion clinics or kill abortionists only proves that my assessment was right on the money.

    • Bert_1

      So, I would never commit murder, but it is OK for another person to commit murder? Sorry, Sara, that simply does not wash.

      There are already millions of people who are ready, willing and able to care for the babies who are being aborted. In most places in North America, the waiting list to adopt newborns is from 5 to 7 years. There are also many many social programs available for a woman who decides to keep her baby.

      But, why do you look at this as telling a woman that it is something she can’t do rather than as helping a baby to be born? I know that many people will try to convince you that the baby (actually, most of them won’t use the word baby) is just a “clump of cells” and really isn’t human anyway. However, you know in your heart that you can trace your life, your existence as a biological entity, back to the point at which you were conceived but no further. When conception occurred, you came into existence and you are the same “you” that you were when you were conceived. No break in the timeline.

      • Sara

        That is where we see a fundamental difference in what constitutes murder. I don’t believe you can “murder” something that could not survive on its own or even with certain medical interventions involved hence the reason I said abortions within reasonable limits and not something as heinous as partial birth abortions where the baby is completely viable. When you speak of murder you are talking about the act of killing someone who is able to walk, talk and breath on its own. That to me is the flaw in your argument.

        • Michigan_Pat

          Please tell me you’re not an ER or ICU doctor/nurse.

          • Sara

            Not at all. I’m in the accounting field.

          • Sara

            No I am not. I am in the accounting field. And thank you to whoever felt the need to delete that same reply of mine from earlier. I really appreciate it since I felt comments people made to me were incredibly rude and disrespectful and are still posted.

        • mrteachersir

          Viability is a poor criteria, and thus, your argument is a poor one. As medical technology improves, the age of viability lowers. Consider that in the past 10 years, we’ve seen the age of viability drop a few weeks. At some point in time, a fertilized egg will be viable (and then we’ll be full-on Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World), and then you’re argument will be moot.

          Biologically, a fertilized egg is a brand new, independent life form, a life that is intrinsically human. As the fertilized egg becomes an embryo, and then a fetus, it is, and will always be, a human being. Thus, abortion is the destruction of an innocent human life, which the last time I checked, was the definition of a murder.

          • Sara

            Unlike some people, I can come to the middle of the table and when that viability that you mentioned comes about through modern science then I will more than likely meet you half way but I think it still begs the question of “Who is responsible for my soul and who do I answer to and who gets to judge me?” Unfortunately sir, you are a negative on all 3 counts.

          • mrteachersir

            I’m not judging your soul, I’m merely pointing out your logic is faulty. You are trying to argue for someone’s choice to end the life of an independent, living, human being that cannot defend itself. The argument you posed (viability) is specious. Obviously, you are concerned about the issue, lest you wouldn’t be thinking about it at all.

            I’m confused though. You say that when, through medical advancement viability at younger ages is a reality, you’ll meet halfway…what does that mean? At this juncture, you’re saying that abortion after 20 weeks (current viability) is bad. You’re saying you’ll meet “halfway”. Does this mean that if viability is 10 weeks, you’ll give 15?

          • Sara

            At what point would you not want someone to tell YOU what religion you could practice or where you could live just because they disagree with you? Could you also answer those questions right now without compromise involved. If we go down that road of telling people what they can or cannot do with something right now, at this moment, with their own bodies or their mind, where does it end? And I’m sorry but until the majority of our country can agree on a definition I don’t believe a fetus is an independent entity if it cannot live independently of its mother. I don’t believe a fetus is living until it can live independently of its mother. I can meet halfway yes, more so then a lot of other people I think because for me it isn’t an all or nothing approach. If science came and said fetus viability starts at 10 weeks then I would agree that any abortions taking place after 10 weeks would not be allowed unless it posed a serious risk for the mother. I would also still allow an exclusion for cases of rape or incest. I’m not heartless. The problem I have is how many people are willing to meet half way to still give women a choice or to help out those ones who have decided to keep their babies instead of aborting them. We have legislation now in the works that wants to define “viable” as two weeks before intercourse even happens. Slap my knee and call me crazy but I’d love it if someone could predict my baby before I even knew about it. People want to make it a case of every abortion is murder. If they think like that, then there is no changing that viewpoint but for me the bigger question is when do we stop butting into the lives of other people when the decision they make has really nothing to do with them or with their soul or their moral choice on a subject that is up for argument about when something becomes viable or not. Also, I would not stretch charging a mother for murder for the loss of an unborn life because how do you know that she somehow aborted it herself versus her body aborting it for her? There seems to also be talk about that. Again the question becomes “Where does it end?” Where?

          • Sara

            Maybe in the end we are really not asking the right questions. What causes a mother to abort her child to begin with? It certainly isn’t a strictly atheist or agnostic or humanist since something like 97% of women who abort identify themselves as Christian, Catholic, Baptist or some other form of religion. Maybe when we get to the bottom of that and can address those issues, then maybe we can sincerely limit the # of abortions without always having this back and form pro-life, pro-choice argument.

          • Diana

            Meanwhile — how many aborted? While we’re “getting to the bottom” and “addressing those issues?”

            In my state, it’s 123 each day. Nationally, it’s over four thousand each day. How much time does that leave for addressing issues?

          • mrteachersir

            You ask some very good questions.

            We live in a country that adores the concept of democracy, as is evidenced in your response: “until the majority of our country can agree on a definition”. But lost is objective truth. The biology is quite clear: life begins (and always has) at conception, and that the nascent life is distinctly human. Biologists are quite in agreement on this: a fertilized egg is a distinct, independent human life. Biologists have been quite clear about this for some time. Pro-lifers have been saying this for decades, and even pro-abortion advocates admit it (Peter Singer comes to mind). With this fact established and shown over and over and over, this means that abortion isn’t just about a woman and her body; no, it is about a woman imposing her will on a weaker human being, one who is completely dependent upon her for nurture, support, and, well life.

            That sounds callous because looked at from a distance, that is what it is: the strong imposing their will on the weak (something we would call “oppression” and would rightly cry out for vengeance against). But behind most women who choose abortion are a range of pressures and emotions that would inhibit most rational thought. I’m willing to bet that for a vast majority of women who elect abortion for reasons other than rape, incest, or life of the mother (cases which generally make up about 10% of abortions per year), the decisions aren’t made with cold, calculating reason, nor are they given all the facts about their child. Abby Johnson, and other pro-lifers who worked with Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers admit that they played on those uncertainties, those fears, and those pressures to “make the sale”.

            Abortion then is about power: the power of the strong over the weak. The mother is forcing her will on the innocent, defenseless unborn child. Parents, boyfriends/husbands, employers are forcing their will on scared and emotional mothers. Abortion providers playing on the fears and emotions of women to kill her child and get her money. Abortion isn’t about care, it isn’t about love. It can’t be.

          • Sara

            Mrteachersir, I sincerely thank you for putting things the way you did…in a respectful tone that discusses things and not being belligerent or calling people names as what has already happened on here. I respect you as a person for that and thank you for sharing your views with me. It certainly gives me some food for thought.

        • Bert_1

          I wasn’t saying that abortion is murder, even though I believe that it is. I was pointing out that just because I refrain from some action, that does not necessarily mean that I believe that it is OK for others to perform that action. I don’t commit murder and I don’t think that it is right or acceptable for anyone else to commit murder.

          Viability is a red herring designed to deflect the argument from the real topic. If you define murder as the wonton destruction of a human life, then abortion is murder. You are killing a human being by performing an abortion. That is science and it cannot be argued. At all.

          But, you say that it isn’t murder because an embryo can’t survive on his/her own. No, s/he cannot. But, I have a 6 month old granddaughter at home and she is incapable of surviving on her own as well. If no one fed her, she would be dead in less than 3 days. So, what is “viable”?

          Your comment about murder being about terminating the life of someone who can “walk, talk and breath on their own” is also very flawed. What about disabled people? Or people who, through disease or accident, can no longer breath on their own? Is killing them OK and not murder?

          I think that you are grasping at an ever diminishing store of straws to justify abortion, Sara. Abortion is murder because you are purposely killing a human being. What stage of development that human is in is completely irrelevant. That is just putting up arbitrary boundaries around the fact that you are killing a human being in a vain attempt to make abortion more palatable. It doesn’t work.

          • Sara

            Well if my admission does not hold true, how is it that people (both conservatives and democrats among others) justify war and the death penalty and are even in favor of such things? Should we not also then charge our military men and women with murder for every person they kill when we go over to their country uninvited? With regards to everything else I believe in mercy. We give mercy to animals by putting them down when they are suffering. Why are we against doing that then when human beings are suffering especially if that is what they themselves want? As for the situation with your granddaughter she is of course viable and anyone lacking in feeding her would be charged with murder but you are comparing apples to oranges, a living, breathing human that is a separate entity of its mother vs. a fetus that could not survive for at least 4 months living outside its mother. I think the viable definition would hold true for any reasonable majority to be honest. I view your granddaughter as completely viable, I view any fetus/baby over 20 weeks of age (currently) as viable, I view my 7 month old and 4 year old as viable. I guess the main question that I still ask everyone is where does it end. Where does the State or others who do not share the same views as other people allowed to impinge on another person’s right to privacy or religion or where they live. Where does it end. If we had an all or nothing approach to abortion I can guess where it would end and that is back to the time when mothers killed themselves by trying to abort babies themselves. It ends when science has deemed a baby dead but refuses to remove said baby from the mother and causes the mother to die because of a blood infection. Is that where we want to go with our world? I think there is a reasonable time to allow abortion and I think their is a reasonable time to no longer allow it unless of a medical emergency. I think their is a time to involve the entire country in people’s decisions with regards to how they live their life and some of the decisions they make and there is a time when it just isn’t anyone’s damn business.

          • Sara

            Maybe in the end we are really not asking the right questions. What causes a mother to abort her child to begin with? It certainly isn’t a strictly atheist or agnostic or humanist since something like 97% of women who abort identify themselves as Christian, Catholic, Baptist or some other form of religion. Maybe when we get to the bottom of that and can address those issues, then maybe we can sincerely limit the # of abortions without always having this back and form pro-life, pro-choice argument.

        • Kelly

          My 18 month old daughter is no more viable and could no more live “on her own” than a 24 week old fetus. Your argument is invalid.

          • Sara

            When I say “survive on its own” I mean that it can still survive fully without its mother if need be. Your 18 month old daughter could be cared for by another just as a 24 week old fetus can survive outside of its mothers womb at this point so I view both as completely viable. There, at least we agree on that point.

        • Heather Parker

          Actually, Sara is correct. You see, the English language has definitions for a reason. In this debate, we have both medical and legal definitions. Lay definitions and our own personal definitions have no place here. For the purposes of this debate, here are some good terms that it would be great if we would all start using the correct definitions for: http://antigoneawakens.com/2013/05/11/abortion-related-vocabulary-lesson/

          • Michigan_Pat

            I want to ask a question but I just sent it via your blog site “contact” page. I couldn’t decide how to word the question in such a way that it might not spark tangential conversations that I don’t have time to get into.

          • Heather Parker

            Hi Pat,

            I’m having some difficulties w/ email replies on my blog right now (drat you google!), but I rec’d your message. If you feel comfortable, I could post it as a blog post response, or else I can wait until google business gets the backend up and running again. Please let me know which you would prefer.

            Best,

            Heather

          • Michigan_Pat

            If you don’t mind, I can wait until your blog/email is back up.
            Thanks.

          • Sara

            LOL. At least I have someone to back me up on the minor issues when it comes to terminology.

          • Diana

            I’m not sure if any particular commenter decides what has “no place here”.

          • Jesi Langdale

            Heather, I love how you start questioning the validity of people’s comments because they differ from yours and then referring us to some random website for ‘real’ definitions. Also, I believe that our own personal definitions do begin to matter. Think of it this way, two hundred or so years ago, the definition of ‘person’ would have been a white male, a group of people then decided for themselves ‘personally’ that blacks are also persons, and deserve the same rights as white men, the same happened with women in the early 1900s. So, in the case of ethical dilemmas and human rights injustices, I definitely would say that our personal consciences definitely matter.

            Also, those definitions are a bit shaky, because technically the law of personhood and when it begins ranges from state to state but it is normally enacted when the fetus is viable, in most state laws. Some may say until it is born, but most count viability as personhood. I argue that viability is not a matter of personhood, but that being a human is an indicator of personhood, since we generally regard humans as persons, except in the case of the unborn.

        • Diana

          So, it’s not murder if the victim is unable to speak, or uses a wheelchair? Or is on a respirator?

        • Jesi Langdale

          Sara, why is it then murder under our law if you kill a person who is on a ventilator in a coma in a hospital?

    • logan

      The problem is that there ARE hundreds of couples who want children, who can not reproduce on their own and would love to adopt. But the process and costs are so extensive it’s ridiculous not to mention the legal rights of the adoptive parent vs the birth parents. Why do you think so many couples adopt out of country? How many couples are simply afraid to adopt because the biological parent can decide months or even years later that they want the child back, and the courts will do just that. So you have a couple who have not just invested time and money, but emotions to only have the birth mother decide to take the child from them without having to compensate the adoptive parents – not that you can compensate emotions. We need to amend adoption procedures here in the U.S. so that it is an easier process and a more permanent process for the adoption parent.

      • Sara

        I agree with you about the process and costs not to mention the legal rights. This is where I think we need a fundamental shift in our policies with regards to adoption. I could not agree with you more. I guess the question we need to answer is how in the world we can get to that point. To find children a good home, the agencies should not be looking to milk adoption parents for tens of thousands of dollars. As far as I’m concerned, I would think adoption agencies would be saving money by having one less mouth to feed and clothe so I don’t know why these expenses are so high to begin with.

        • mrteachersir

          The costs of adoption are influenced by many factors, including:

          1) regulation on adoption, regulation that has forced excellent adoption providers (like Catholic Charities in Boston) out of business, and increased the cost of business

          2) abortion has been pushed as a viable alternative to adoption. Many different organizations have spent millions of dollars to push the idea that abortion is a normal and acceptable choice when faced with an unwanted pregnancy, an easy fix, so to speak. Adoption doesn’t have the PR that abortion does. This means that the supply of newborns and infants (which most adoptive parents want) is much lower than the demand, so the cost is much, much higher.

          • Basset_Hound

            For years, adoption has been portrayed as a very negative alternative. The mindset is ….”like wow. It’s ‘cold blooded’ to give up your own flesh and blood”. Therefore it’s more “humane” to have an abortion. Because if Mommy can’t take care of it, no one should have the opportunity. I’ve been in several “what if” discussions when I was younger, and every single time I said that if I were pregnant out of wedlock, I’d choose adoption, I was called all kinds of horrible names.

          • blair miller

            I’m sorry you were teased, I remember one time , a I was talking to a bunch of women who were pro choice. When I said about adoption,, they said wouldn’t it be cruel for the mom to have the child and give it up?But I was thinking wouldn’t it be cruel to killed the child, just because he/she was concived at not the right time.

          • Basset_Hound

            “But I was thinking wouldn’t it be cruel to killed the child, just because he/she was conceived at not the right time.”

            Exactly…..

  • Jane Doe

    Sorry if this is rude, but I am genuinely asking this question out of curiosity. If you are extremely Christian, as you seem to imply in this essay, how come you were having pre-marital sex?
    I mean I don’t think pre-marital sex is particularly bad but many Christians do.

    • sierra

      Let me break this down one more time. And I appreciate you trying not to be rude. Yes premarital sex is bad. However as Christians we know we are all sinners. We make mistakes. Its in our nature. But we try our best. I’ve asked for forgiveness for my sins. I was definitely led astray. But God always finds ways to reach out to us and I’d say me becoming pregnant was a heck of way. I’ve made mistakes but they so not define me. I can learn and grow. And I will continue to do so as I’m only 19. Hope this answers your question.

    • Diana

      Abortion doesn’t make the other bad things go away. It would just add your dead baby to the bad things, and it’s final and irrevocable. You can never “undo” it.

      I think it was Mother Angelica who said, that pre-marital sex is the most popular sin — but also one of the most easily forgiven.

      Not so with abortion.

  • cvlong821

    Thank you so much for sharing! I loved reading your story. It is such an inspiration!

  • Sara

    Thank you Sierra for your story. I wish your family the best in everything and even though I am not strictly pro-life myself, I do not begrudge anyone who is as long as they do it in a respectful manner as you have.

  • unacknowledged and.uncredited.

    I am so confused. You do not think a women should have the right to abortion. You claim you find this inspiration in the Bible, yet you seem to have no problems with homosexuality or sex out of marriage.
    You then claim that it is hard to ignore the scientific facts, what scientific facts?

    • Sierra

      Okie dokie. I am against abortion. Here’s why. When I was pregnant and being pressured to have one I buried myself in research. Starting with when life begins. My basic biology text book from ninth grade gave me that answer. At conception. There is so much more science and if you can probably find a lot of it in the comments above. I looked for the answers in the bible this past year about abortion. While it doesn’t say the word “abortion” it does have some clear scriptures. If you’d like for me to list them I’d be glad to. I didn’t say I was okay with sex out of marriage. I’ve recognized that this actually hurt me emotionally in a lot of ways. One thing I’ve learned in Christianity is that you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I could on about this but let me paraphrase. Christians come from all different kinds of pasts. We are diverse. We recognize that as human beings we struggle with sin. It’s everywhere! Sometimes we do things we shouldn’t because NO ONE is perfect. To say you haven’t sinned is laughable. We are taught that by asking God’s forgiveness we are forgiven. And to me that shows how loving God is. That despite my past I am forgiven. If you don’t believe in any of this you might not get it and that’s fine. Onto identifying as LGBTQ. Ever heard of Love Thy Neighbor? I think it’s important to realize that the Pro life movement is diverse and that we should be putting differences aside to be able to win this battle. Could you imagine? We’d be unstoppable. I know that there are prolife LGBTQ boys and girls among us. I don’t want someone to turn away from a cause saving children because another person was hateful towards them within the group. And again. If they can help adopt a child who could have been aborted or was living in the foster care then that’s AMAZING.

      • unacknowledged and.uncredited

        More questions.

        Which basic biology text book from ninth grade gave you that answer?

        Please show me the scriptures that state that life begins at conception and/or abortion is murder.

        If God is so forgiving won’t he forgive you for an abortion as well?

        Onto Love Thy Neighbor, maybe love thy neighbor enough to allow her to have an abortion?

        So if life begins at conception then when a mother miscarries is that considered murder, or maybe manslaughter as it wasn’t intentional? Then my mother is a murderer.

        Also what about a pregnancy where both the mother and the child will die from the complications, but this can be prevented with an abortion? Is that not worse as two lives will be lost rather than just one?

        What about a pregnancy as a result of rape? Do you really want to punish a women with a constant reminder of her rape for the rest of her life?

        • Anonymous Queer

          U&U,

          If you go upthread, I’m actually talking about my own pregnancy that was a result of rape and how it made me even more pro-choice.

  • Jesi Langdale

    Seriously though everyone should watch this debate. This guy very clearly states the fact, “Elective Abortion IS a Human Rights Injustice”

  • Robert

    Not my type of girl but at least she is pro-life, good for her.

  • http://estquodest.com/ Ⓔⓢⓣ⋅Ⓠⓤⓞⓓ⋅Ⓔⓢⓣ

    Beautiful! Thank you for your testimony to truth and life!

  • Howard Hacker

    What is the Q at the end of LGBT stand for?

    • Jesi Langdale

      Queer

      • Harry

        “Questioning”, I believe, actually.

        • Sierra

          nah its Queer

  • gary s.

    Sierra!! I could not be more proud of you if you were my own daughter!! WOW!

  • Al Clerc

    God, bless her! I hope my grandchildren turn out like her

  • Stan

    Wonderful.

  • Amber

    Good for you Sierra. My family is a mix of Catholic & Christian so Pro-life is a way of life but I do recall the story of my mother at 16 years old being pushed into aborting me before they knew how far along she was (she hid me for almost 6 months), then of course adoption was shoved at her. She had made up her mind long before to keep me (she’s pretty amazing if I say so myself) but it was a tough decision & a long road but she found a man that wanted me just as much as her so it did get easier.
    That being said I’ve never been pro-choice but I’ve never thought I had a reason to help anyone choose life. My family’s involvement in the movement kept me from thinking that others don’t have this much info in their faces all the time like I do. Some women & men need to know someone is there for them to understand their fears & share the horrifying facts. So much like yourself, I am now a Pro-life warrior with my grandmother, aunts, mother & cousin! We volunteer our time & knowledge to help shut down one of the last abortion clinics & expand pregnancy & adoption clinics! It’s amazing to watch the numbers decrease in such a troubled area.
    Keep sharing the facts, you never know maybe they need to hear the scientific facts from someone that it actually means something to.

  • Bob Pegram

    If this question has been answered already, please point me to it in the 143 comments. What was your parents’ and siblings’ reaction? Has your announcement distanced you from them significantly?

    • sierra

      we had our struggles of course but my parents have come around A LOT and know I work my butt off as a mommy. My brother and I are pretty opposite on this issue but I hope my son softens his heart and that he loves his nephew.

  • lroy77

    Honey, you look about 13. But fear not, I’ll be 51 soon and don’t look a day after 30. You’ll appreciate it when you’re my age. Love.

  • http://eastsidehunky.wordpress.com/ EastSideHunky

    God bless this brave young woman…liberals are the most cruel tyrants, although they always accuse others of that,

  • thatdigiguy

    Good for her – so glad to see that tomorrow’s civil rights warriors are learning well from the mistakes of their parents.. do *NOT* fret about having a kid while in your teens/20’s…for 10+ centuries women had their kids while in their late teens..

    It wasn’t until the feminazis came along and told us that women were supposed to be men and not women, that women started waiting till their 30s to have kids….

  • ybstyer

    Thank you! I was just having a problem with a fellow Christian about this very thing. Thanks to you I can show her that we are not alone, and we must stand up for what is right! God bless you Sierra! ;)

  • Rose

    Sierra, God’s light shines brightly through you. We will look back at this time in our world’s history with the same type of shock and regret as Hitler’s massacre. So many people with blood on their hands… It’s easier for people with fear or feelings of self entitlement to shield themselves with denial. Who wants to face the horrific fact that they have murdered their own child? So many excuses. The murders must stop. It’s a human rights issue.

  • Marianne

    awesome!!!!! God knows the world NEEDS her in this dangerous pro-death culture.

  • Sam

    Good job standing up for your beliefs! I grew up in a pro-life environment myself so I can’t imagine what it must have been like for you to “come out” to your family. I also like writing and Doctor Who. God bless.

  • JC Lincoln

    You are inspiring. I pray your message reaches thousands to rethink their belief on abortion.
    BTW, you have a lovely son. I can tell that he’s a ‘happy’ kid.

    God bless.

  • Petercha0001

    Good for you, Sierra! I wish we had lots more young ladies like you in America.

  • Erzsi Bloemer

    Bless you, Sierra! You have it right when you connect being Christian with protecting weak, defenseless people from harm.

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  • apachewoman

    Thank you Sierra for shareing you story. Mine is something like yours. When I was expecting my son, my mother-inlaw and sister-inlaw tried to bully me in to haveing an abortion. My mother-inlaw said her son, (my husband) didn’t need the stress on him of having a child to support, and my sister-inlaw said it was not anything but a fetus, not a real baby, and that haveing an abortion was just like cracking an egg, nothing to it. They called me stupid and alot of other bad word. And I asked them about the stress on me for killing my baby if I had an abortion, they called me selfish because I would not do it. Then in the frist week of 3 month I started haveing some problems and bleeding, the doctor said that there must be something wrong with the fetus, it must be blind, deformed, or retarted because my body was rejecting it. I beged him to do something to keep me from loosing my baby. He said no, just to go on home and let my body reject the fetus, he still would not call it a baby. I went home and stayed in bed with my feet up for the next couple of months. Things got better. But in the start of my 7th month my blood pressure shot up, my baby stoped moving, and the doctor told me he could not find a heartbeat, that the fetus was dead and they needed to do an saline abortion. I screamed NO and he told me that it would kill me to carry a dead fetus if my body did not reject it on it’s own. I told him ” Then I guess I’m going to die, you are not aborting my BABY, and yes it is a baby not just a FETUS”. I walked out of the emergency room of the hospital in a backless hospital gown and left. I didn’t care if my rearend was shineing or not, they were not going to pump salt water in me and burn (pickle) my poor baby. I went home and again stayed in bed for the rest of my term. My son is now 35 years old, he weight 7 lbs. 7 oz. at birth very healthy. He is a computer wizard, so much for being retarted , he has all his fingers and toes, 2 arms, 2 legs, no missing or missed shaped parts, he now stands 6ft. 3ins. tall, so much for being deformed, and the pretties blue eyes you ever saw, 20-20 vision, so much for being blind. Those doctors, that was suppose to know so much” WERE SO WRONG!!!”. I did not die, I carried my baby full term, and he has been the biggest blessing God has giving me in my life. I was young when I had him, and I divorce his father, and rasied my boy on my own. Now that I’m old and have become disabled, my Son is taking care of me. And to think of all the joy and happiness that this fetus has giving me, and how sad and empty my life would have been if I had gave in to all the pressure to kill him, it make me cry.

  • Rebecca

    Awesome article! I really admire your bravery and your honesty. And thanks also to those who commented below and gave your stories. I’m so tired of all the lies from those who promote abortion, and it’s very refreshing to hear the truth so boldly and honestly stated.

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  • gabrielle jones

    Glad to hear your testimony. I know about being a young mother..I was married at 20 and had 5 kids by the time I was 27. This was at the height of the women’s lib movement,and I got a lot of stares and rude comments.I didn’t care,because I loved being a mother. It is a choice I never regretted. Now I am a young grandma,and I can still run and chase thegrand kids. I pray for an end to legal abortion in this country.

    • TruthTour

      Love your testimony! This is just what I mean—the rudeness and ridicule from pro-aborts. For the longest they have not been stood up to, and look where we are now. Just because society has become the immoral, cultural rot that it is, we do not have to take it. ENOUGH! This time—WE FIGHT and take our country back!!!

  • Jesi Langdale

    @brazenqueer:disqus society as a whole is caring and in a way carrying the unborn. Society as a whole has a duty to protect the innocent. I just don’t see how people with your views can say that injustice is occurring when police pepper spray people’s faces, but when human beings are being killed in the name of personal ‘choice’ you have no reaction. Also, I hate the whole anon schtick. I could take you a lot more seriously if you would just be who you are. How do we even know YOU or what your story really is? I’m sorry that you had to go through rape, I was raped as a kid, but I didn’t get pregnant,but then when I was 19, I became pregnant of my own regard and had an abortion, and it was a selfish choice based on lies. You claim to be an anarchist, well, don’t you see elective abortion in a sense of being a complete rolling out of capitalistic ‘give me everything i want no matter who i crush’ sentiments?

  • Jesi Langdale

    @brazenqueer:disqus also i’d love to know are you a real medical professional or just one of those ‘street doctors’ i used to see at protests?

    • http://twitter.com/brazenqueer Anonymous Queer

      Actual medical professional.

  • Jesi Langdale

    I’m done with this ‘debate’ because it’s going nowhere and I think no one’s mind is going to be changed, but I want to leave everyone with a quote from the wonderful Mark Twain.

    “Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will.”

  • Christine E. Petterson

    Wonderful! How awesome, do go aganist the grain! Yeah Jesus! Thank you for picking pro-life not because of just being a Christian but for the FACTS!

  • Elizabeth Cecilia Wellner

    Thank you for this! And a fellow Doctor Who fan! I love it! :)

  • luigibelmont

    Like your simplicity, happy that you had choice life, I know women who had got though the pain of post abortion and the regret that come. The one I hear are believer and had found comfort in God GRACE.

  • Jennifer Peterson

    Excellent message, Sierra! Keep doing what you do!

  • TruthTour

    Sierra, your little James is gorgeous! God bless your beautiful family! I also want to clarify for some earlier comment that ‘elective’ means optional, not “monetary” and the following may also help with regards to the so-called “need” to kill an unborn human being to “save” the life of the mom: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/no-case-where-abortion-was-necessary-to-save-mom-eminent-irish-oncologist/, http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/no-more-lies-new-irish-video-shows-that-abortion-never-saves-a-mothers-life/, http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/11/experts-abortion-not-medically-necessary-to-save-the-life-of-a-mother/

  • TruthTour

    Homosexuality is an immoral and perverted mental disorder. It is a travesty to subject a child to this, rather than allow the child the mother and father that the child deserves.

  • lroy77

    Even in identical twins, the DNA is unique with just the slightest difference between the two individuals.

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