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Shock: Presbyterian Church USA votes against denouncing infanticide

The Presbyterian Church USA General Assembly made a lot of headlines when they voted to bless same-sex marriages. But Wesley J. Smith brings up a far more disturbing vote at the convention that isn’t getting as many headlines: voting no to protect babies born alive after a failed abortion.

Heck, they wouldn’t even be the ones doing the protecting. All the measure was asking for was prayerful reflection, and to denounce the practice of killing babies born alive after abortion. Not many people could find a problem with that — except our wonderful pro-abortion president, of course — but apparently, Presbyterians do. Check out the failed motion:

The Presbytery of South Alabama overtures the 221st General Assembly (2014) of the Presbyterian Church (USA) to do the following:

1. Call for the Presbyterian Mission Agency and member congregations to enter a two-year season of reflection upon the plight of children unwanted by human society, both born and not-yet born, and to purposefully seek to enter the pure worship of God by offering aid, comfort, and the Gospel to those responsible for the care of our most desperate orphans (including those who survive abortion procedures): parents, siblings, church and community leaders, and the medical profession.

2. Direct the Moderator of the General Assembly and the Stated Clerk to issue statements that denounce the practice of killing babies born live following an abortion procedure, such as was revealed in the Dr. Kermit Gosnell clinic in Philadelphia.

3. Direct the Moderator to appoint a Special Committee on Abortion Review, carefully balanced with members representing both pro-life and pro-choice viewpoints, to

a. Conduct a thorough assessment of the financial, in-kind, lodgment, publicity, and staff support that the PC(USA) provides to organizations such as Planned Parenthood, Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options, Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and other abortion providers or pro-choice organizations. A similar review should be made of denominational support provided for pro-life organizations and pro-life crisis-pregnancy support centers.

b. Review existing policies and, if needed, propose new policies that will more accurately represent the PC(USA) in its breadth of conviction about abortion, taking into account our churches’ desire to worship God in purest form (Jas. 1:27). Any new policies shall incorporate more fully the voices of pro-life Presbyterians, who have to this point largely been kept silent in denominational advocacy.

Evidently, denouncing infanticide and praying for children born after an abortion fails doesn’t fly in today’s Presbyterian church. The motion didn’t call for the Presbyterian church to stop supporting pro-abortion organizations, like Planned Parenthood, either — or is asking for an assessment of support given to both pro-life and pro-abortion organizations somehow too pro-life for them Presbyterian church, too?

Protecting children born after abortion, looking at the support given to pro-life and pro-abortion organizations, and giving pro-life Presbyterians a more equal voice in the church… these are the things that are apparently too abhorrent for PCUSA to accept.

It should also be made clear that this wasn’t a narrow victory. The margin of defeat for this motion was 465 – 133. It was a landslide, because for PCUSA, saying that what Kermit Gosnell did is horrific and wrong, and should never happen again, is evidently too much to ask. After all, it might upset their buddies in the abortion industry, which has plenty of Gosnells still practicing today.

  • MamaBear

    May God have mercy upon us when even the churches of our nation have turned their backs on the least of these precious lives.
    Perhaps they need to open their Bibles and read Matthew 18:3-6 and Psalm 139:13-16.

    • Ingrid Heimark

      maybe it is time to denounce them as christians?

    • carolchristine

      Absolutely unbelievable ! Why call themselves a Church? Obama voted against the born alive act in Illinois when he was a senator, more than once. He was only 1 of 2 senators to vote against it. The law would have made it mandatory for hospitals to try and save the baby’s life if born alive after a failed abortion. How can any human being sit there and watch a new born baby die? This is the very first reason I voted against Obama for President. Now we have a church voting not save a human life? I am in shock.

  • cranemaker

    Unreal! I am outraged that our own believers have forsaken us and our preborn relatives. Infanticide is illegal and extreme. I question to where those leaders believe they are predestined, but aside, an extreme rejection to approve infanticide is more than enough to upset masses into a peaceful revolt. Even early abortions are too extreme let alone infanticide.

    Hope God shall change these ministers’ hearts to accept all people independent of where they are ultimately headed. We shall recognize the ministers and babies as human and needing love though they are each other’s enemies. I care about the ministers who voted in infanticide’s favor and do not intend suffering upon them though we are enemies. Instead we should accept them and trust God to ease their suffering restoring the sanctity to life.

  • Russell Eads

    I don’t know much about the Presbyterian Church, but from what I can see you are an apostate group, even the Catholic Church keeps its evils secret, at least you are out in the open. I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on your leaders souls and those souls of anyone who would remain a member of such a vile institution.

    • Eugene Edward Yeo

      You know, Mr. Eads, in the Catholic Church we are taught to assume that our fellow christians are, in fact, christian and not pass judgment upon them until they act in a way contrary to Christ’s walk. Of course, we also wouldn’t disrespect soldiers by putting pictures of them up covered in sponsor tags like a race car, and we know that the Vatican is a city, and so meeting with members of other religions to pray for peace in a garden isn’t a sign of heresy. But then, we’d also find the term “Christlam” to be a grave injustice, especially when used in reference to a christian art exhibit in a muslim country. Ever hear of ministry through the Arts?

      Speaking of apostates, what church do you belong to?

      • Russell Eads

        First of all I believe I was only stating what is known history about the Roman Catholic Church. Well, maybe I didn’t list anything specific, but that would take more time than I care to spend on the subject.
        Giving the cult of islam any recognition is legitimizing it, and that is what your so-called HOLY FATHER did when he allowed muslims to pray in the Vatican. This is very disturbing considering the fact that muslims deny Jesus Christ as the living God embodied on Earth and the Holy Spirit, this according to my Bible is evidence of the spirit of anti-Christ.
        Chrislam is a term espoused by an Evangelical Christian named Rick Warren and it is terribly wrong.
        There is no joining or reconciling the muslim cult with Christianity for any who deny Jesus and the true HOLY FATHER and the Holy Spirit are themselves by definition the spirit of anti-Christ.
        I myself am of not a member of a religion I am a member of a reality and that is Christianity.
        Have you ever heard of Ministry through the Bible.
        I am not judging, I am stating facts, and letting God’s word do the judging.
        Try reading the Bible more and listening to your mediator the priest less.

        • Eugene Edward Yeo

          “Known through history” is going to take a bit of explaining. And I’d like you to cite your sources.

          Islam is a religion. It is a religion of hate and violence, but it remains a religion. As it is not Christian to exterminate our neighbours, what remains is to gain a dialogue with them and reason with those sections of their population who are open to reason. Or do you believe that no such populations exist within Islam?

          I’ve never met Mr. Warren.

          You claim that Islam can not be reconciled with Christ. Does this mean you do not believe we should make an attempt at ministry?

          Let me tell you a story. There was once a good man who wished to minister to the Muslims. He learned Arabic, got a bunch of bibles printed in Arabic, went to Iran and was stoned to death.

          There was once a wise man who wished to minister to the Muslims. He learned Arabic, went to Iran and opened up a shop. There he had conversations with his customers and was a good neighbour. When the people around him asked why he was so happy and fruitful, he had the opportunity to share his faith one on one. And his customers and neighbours could listen one on one without fear from the religious authorities of that nation.

          So. Who reached more people?

          You have brought forth no facts, sir, only slander. You assume that I don’t read my bible – no, you claim that *we* do not read *our* bibles, and yet there are bible readings every mass, and each bulletin has daily readings. Perhaps you, sir, should listen to Jack Chick and his hate-mongering ilk less.

          Answer me this: Revelations speaks about the saints surrounding the Throne praising God. They are very clearly *there*. So what is wrong with asking them, since they are already there, to pray for us? I assume you have no problem asking your friends and relatives to pray for you, so why not them?

          • MamaBear

            Rev. Warren denies the charges that he is trying to mix Islam with Christianity. Those charges are based on what a reporter said in a newspaper article.
            He has encouraged his members to become friends with Muslim neighbors and coworkers, start small neighborhood Bible studies to lead them to Christ, and his church invited teens and imans from local mosques to participate in an inter-faith soccer game – ministers and imans together vs. teens.
            I am not a big fan of Rick Warren, but he insists he and his church still believe in salvation through Christ alone, the Trinity, and the inerrancy of the Bible. There is no proof, other than what one reporter wrote, otherwise.

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            … then what exactly is the problem with the good Rev. Warren? I rather thought that we should always try and make friends with all kinds of people and demonstrate the truth of our faith through our daily walk.

          • MamaBear

            He picked the wrong reporter to give an interview to.

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            It is hard to find “good” reporters in this day and age.

        • Cynical_Meliorist

          “I myself am not a member of a religion I am a member of a reality and that is Christianity.”

          Is it that you’re, in fact, claiming to be non-denominational? Or just spiritual? If you’re going the non-denom route, this has to be the strangest and most awkward way of saying it I have yet to come across.

          • Russell Eads

            My what an astute observation. Yes, I am non-denominational. I don’t recall reading anywhere in my Bible where Jesus said to the Disciples “You Peter go found the Episcopalians, or You Paul go found the Roman Catholics.” I don’t think it was strange or awkward and you got the point. Now, I am not going to argue with all of you, God Bless You all and keep you.

          • Cynical_Meliorist

            Your condescending tone notwithstanding, the observation wasn’t some miracle of reading comprehension. My point was that you basically went around Farmer John’s proverbial barn to make a statement that could have been typed out in a fraction of the time and simply been direct rather than an attempt at playing Mr. Mysterious on the internet.

            It was your delivery, not my ability to recognize it, which was odd.

          • Russell Eads

            Sounded to me like you were having trouble and that you continue too. Have a good life. I have better things to do than argue with such as you. Ever heard the saying;”Don’t cast your pearls before swine”: If not look it up and maybe you can understand that.

          • Cynical_Meliorist

            “Sounded to me like you were having trouble and that you continue too”

            Like you struggle with extra O’s in words? No, it wasn’t a struggle. You made it sound odd. I pointed it out. You’re still dancing around it.

            “Ever heard the saying;”Don’t cast your pearls before swine””

            Yes, and I still responded to you. Consider it charity.

            You can’t argue with me. Not only is it a point in which there is no real argument to be had (which you had enough sense at least to acknowledge, but then do so anyway), but in a real argument of anything on this page, you’ve lost to everyone else. Why waste my energy in an opponent that I already know is not worth the time and has been beaten?

            Please, go have a good life. Not going to stop you. You should, however, refrain from making statements that make you look like a partial nutjob on the internet.

            Peace.

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            Correct. There is only one Church founded by Christ. And only Catholics and the Orthodox have continued in that line.

            “You are Rock, and upon this Rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew, chapter 16, verses 18 and 19.

            Compare with


            In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father.”
            Isaiah 22:20-23.

      • Lea

        Christians and Muslims do not serve the same God. Islam is anti Christ. How does a Christian and a Muslim pray together?

        • Eugene Edward Yeo

          In the Army I prayed with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a pagan or two. We prayed for strength, for survival and we all prayed that our task was a noble one.

          Three men from different religions gathering to pray together for peace is not uncalled for, or even uncommon. Do you know what actually happened at the Vatican? I can get you a transcript if you’d like.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Eugene, you can all pray for the same things, but you are all praying to different “gods.” Each contradicts the other in essential ways. Only one of those “gods” is the One True God, Who is able to respond to your prayers. The rest are non-existent. Religious pluralism is not helpful to the Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or pagan IF the God of the Bible is True and means what He says in John 14:6.

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            That in no way changes the fact that all can pray together. And if we can peacefully gather to pray in our different ways, we can discuss what makes us different and what makes us the same.

            Any belief system which speaks of a universal truth must be willing to discuss that truth. I believe that I hold the universal truth. I have a friend who is pagan who believes HE holds the universal truth. In coming together we are able to defend why we believe our system to be the Truth. If we both belief that we hold the one Truth and yet believe different things, one must be incorrect. And how else will we know but through dialogue?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Well, of course we should dialogue together. Duh! But, when doing so, we mustn’t compromise our faith to the point of religious pluralism. Please, let us not pretend that we are praying to the same God when we pray together. As for “peacefully gathering to pray in our different ways,” please go lecture to the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, etc about doing so: they are the ones persecuting Christians right now – in case you missed it.
            But, if you are merely saying to love the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, and atheist, I am all for it! I love witnessing to these folks, but I don’t pray to Allah, the million gods of Hinduism, or Buddha while doing so. As long as you are not spouting liberal nonsense about religious pluralism or putting silly “COEXIST” bumper stickers on your car, I am on board with you. :-) Those bumper stickers have done tremendous damage to the Kingdom.

        • overfiend

          They don’t? Don’t read much, huh?

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            No, in fact they do not. A Christian understanding of God and a muslim understanding of allah are two violently different things and opposed to each other. For example, muslims do not believe that Christ died on the cross, because allah would not allow that to happen to one of his prophets.

          • Russell Eads

            Oh, you two are so condescending. I know of what you speak. No, I don’t think as the muslim does. I don’t think that someone who will not accept Jesus should be killed. Yes, by all means ministry should be attempted for those of all other faiths, I just don’t think that was the goal of your Pope.
            I think it is his wish to have an amalgamation of all the major so-called religions and turn that one into a one world religion.
            As to the injustices of the Roman Catholic Church, they are legion. I will just list the DARK AGES, and THE SPANISH INQUISITION.

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            So you claim to know how he thinks, and automatically assume the worst?

            The dark ages, where the Church was the beacon of art, science and reason? And the Spanish Inquisition, one of many national inquisitions? That’s why it’s called “Spanish” and not “Catholic”.

          • Russell Eads

            Oh, my God, you are a bunch of deluded fools, I didn’t realize I was speaking to Vatican Trolls. You fellows have a good life. THE CHURCH, a beacon of idolatry and paganism, enjoy your Roman Catholic Faith after all its Universal isn’t it?

          • PJ4

            Do you believe in the “Trinity”
            Do you put up a tree during X-mas?
            Would you wear a wedding ring if you were married?
            Do you believe a god became human?
            Do you believe that the key to your salvation lies in a book and baptism?
            Do you celebrate Easter?

            If you answered yes to any of the above questions:
            Welcome to pagansism 101

          • Lea

            Doubt if you have that right lady, since in the Old Testament, God is plural. There are other places too in the Torah were you see God manifesting or expressing himself in three different ways. A tree and gifts in celebration of the birth of Christ does not make you pagan since it depends on intent. Yes God in the flesh, and if you do not believe that then you are anti Christ, says the bible. Salvation is only in Christ Jesus and in the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Easter is the Christian term for the Jewish Passover for most Christians, and there is no thought of goddesses and spring etc. It is once more just a celebration of the event and the thing is more commercial than anything else, and it is a lot of fun for children, just like Christmas, all for Jesus, nothing else, all in the intent. And yes, God has provided for the redemption of humanity, freely available at this time, through his grace which he is now pouring out upon hearts and minds. If you knew Christ you would not be asking these kinds of questions, you would rather be asking: Do you pray to saints and Mary?

          • PJ4

            Do you believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy too?

          • Lea

            Know it alls applies to you too. Did you know that in the Christian trinity there is no female consort to give birth to a divine son? Mainly because in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no male and female. Atheists are half educated, yet think they have a superior intelligence and morality, when everything points to the opposite, and exhibit in their own particular brand of religious zeal.

          • PJ4

            I don’t claim to “know it all”
            It’s possible some kinda god can exist. It’s also possible that unicorns may or may not exist
            I can’t prove or disprove either theory
            I’m really more agnostic

            There’s no female consort in the Hindi Trinity either
            Wait….does the bible say there’s no male or female in the “kingdom of heaven”?
            Hmmm. I must have missed that part.

            I don’t claim to have superior knowledge or morality than anyone
            I do think that I don’t need religion to force me into submitting to a moral lifestyle
            What is this “everything” that points to the opposite?
            Example please?

            I have neither the time nor the energy to exhibit any religious zeal on anything
            I think I’m pretty moderate on most things
            Don’t be so defensive btw…it doesn’t make your beliefs look very attractive

          • Lea

            Each God in the trinity has his consort, in Hinduism, and they are equally goddesses.

            But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:23-30)
            There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
            What you are deriding is nothing less that the very real witness that a great many human beings have experienced in the reality of Jesus Christ. How much more unattractive could you make yourself?
            I am sure that you can see the erosion of the fabric of humanity as they move towards the motto “Doest what thou wilt”. Which is a retrogression back into the days when we thought it was fine to have sex with animals and sacrifice humans to demons, and pedophilia was not a crime.

          • PJ4

            And it’s arrogant “Christians” like you that confirms my agnostic position

          • Lea

            If it were not for the book you would never have known in the first place what moral even meant. You are merely a product of the Christian framework of your history. It is obvious that you are just a bluster, with little substance since all you can do is accuse and blame.

          • PJ4

            Lol
            You keep telling yourself that

          • Eugene Edward Yeo

            Um… I’m actually a Byzantine Catholic. Just a point of fact there.

    • overfiend

      You haven’t read much of Jesus’ teachings have you?

  • Charles Sutherland

    Protestantism as a movement is becoming increasingly ineffectual in this country. Most of the mainline denominations don’t take a stand on moral issues, but just go with whatever the culture says is right. But what can be expected of a movement that was founded to be “progressive” from the beginning?

    • MamaBear

      Protestants are not all under one umbrella, so to speak. There are other smaller Presbyterian denominations which hold to Biblical standards. This article was about one, the largest Presbyterian denomination, not all Presbyterians. Presbyterian Church of America and Orthodox Presbyterian are very conservative, very Biblical, and very pro-life.
      Among Lutherans, you find some quite liberal and others still holding Biblical truths. Most Baptist denominations, except for one (ABC), are still very Biblically oriented. Southern Baptist (SBC), the largest Protestant denomination in the US, is still very Biblical in it’s standards and very pro-life.
      Please do not use Presbyterian USA to judge all Protestants, or even all Presbyterians.
      I don’t think a standard of “sola scriptura” could be called “progressive.”

      • Charles Sutherland

        You are right. I am sorry for having contributed to the general ignorance. Forgive me?

        • MamaBear

          Of course.

    • Russell Eads

      You know not of what you speak. Would you call Catholicism Progressive, I guess not.
      Did you not hear of the so-called HOLY FATHER allowing members of the cult of islam and I believe even other so-called religions to pray or chant in the Vatican. I guess his statements that the Catholic Church might need to modernize it’s thinking mainly due to Homosexuality wouldn’t be considered progressive to you.
      I do agree however that the majority of churches in Protestantism have abandoned their calling and it is truly depressing.

      • Eugene Edward Yeo

        Mr. Eads, *anyone* may pray at the Vatican. The Vatican is a City, with many churches and chapels. As an independent city-state, there are often visitors from other nations who hold other faiths on the Vatican grounds.

  • barbarakelly

    Judgement will fall on the churches first who go against GOD and his laws. They are going down the slippery slope rather then truly teach his words. They would rather build fancy churches then teach the word of GOD. They would rather ride the fence then stand the ground for the word of GOD. We have lost the word of GOD in the schools and know in the same sex marriages. They have even backed off on Israel where our faith began, with Jesus. Where are the calls for the nation to repent. What did GOD say about the children. Remember people . He is our only help. For the preachers have seemed to lost their way and look more to the plate offerings.!!!

    • carolchristine

      I agree. Churches are about money now .

  • Private Person

    This made me physically sick. May God turn the hearts of those 465, who voted NO.

  • Lea

    This church is clearly anti Christ. They also prefer to support the arab muslims in the Middle East who are committing genocide and terror on the innocent peoples living in the region, with particular emphasis on torturing, raping and beheading Christians and destroying their ancient churches. Yet they have voted in support of the Islamic jihad called BDS against Israel, where Christians are safe. Clearly they have been infested with demonic activity.

  • TORO

    WHAT HYPOCRITES

  • MamaBear

    I am very disappointed to see that this comment section has turned into a Catholic vs. Protestant bashing session.

    We Christians need to stand together for our Lord. This was a report on who one denomination has gone astray. One! Yes, there are others. But rather than bashing one another, what is wrong with Protestants, what the Pope is doing wrong, accusations of compromising with Islam (against both Pope and a Protestant megachurch pastor)……

    Do you not see what is happening here? This is how evil wins. We get a report like this, and instead of setting aside our differences, and going together to our Lord in prayer, working together for the Biblical values that unite us, we begin fighting one another.

    I happen to think my church’s theology is right, too. But, we will not get to Heaven by passing a theology exam.
    If Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, no matter what church you belong to, you are my brother or sister in Christ.
    Let’s get our priorities straight and fight evil, not each other.

    • Eugene Edward Yeo

      How will we know that we are leading others along the straight path unless we examine our faiths?

      • MamaBear

        Nothing wrong with examining our faith. But we have to get our priorities straight. We have to realize that if we are followers of Christ, we should have more in common with each other

        • Eugene Edward Yeo

          There is a difference between “love” and “accept dangerous heresy”. I can do one without the other. Mormons, for example, claim to follow Christ. Yet their beliefs greatly endanger souls.

          • MamaBear

            That is why I said, if Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Fighting over the pope or mode of baptism or what kind of music to use will not end infanticide or abortion, nor will it win souls. There are areas we should and can work together that in no way negate or compromise our theological differences.

            A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with a rare aggressive breast cancer. I honestly have no idea how many people from how many denominations prayed for me. I know I was on prayer lists of churches not only where I had friends and relations, but where those people had friends and relations. Even in a couple of other countries. I am still here, currently in remission, God has granted me a while longer. If people can pray like that for one small town mom and teacher, what would happen if we really got serious about praying for the scourge of abortion together?

            And if non-Christians take stands for the right, I will graciously work together with them to end such evils as abortion. That does not mean I will agree with them about God or compromise my Christian beliefs.

            We need to be God’s light in this dark world, showing those who do not know God how to love our neighbors, love our enemies, and most of all, our fellow Christians. How can we do that if we are fighting one another?

        • Basset_Hound

          Personally, I feel that it is very ungracious to engage in theological “Catholic bashing”, since many of the “higher ups” on LAN are Catholic. It would be sort of like me coming to your home for dinner, and then spending the entire evening attacking your denomination.

          As far as I’m concerned, there are people who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior who choose to remain Catholic. Perhaps they feel most at home with the traditions, but it’s not my place to question them. Some of them are so fearless and bold in their defense of innocent human life, they put lukewarm Protestants to shame!

          • MamaBear

            Agreed. Catholics boldly stood up against abortion well before many Protestants, even the conservative and Evangelical ones did.
            When I was first diagnosed with cancer, and so many people from so many denominations (and even some non-Christians) started telling me they were praying for me, I found it very humbling. It was not about theology, it was about life.
            Why can we not be that united to fight for the lives of the unborn being lost to abortion? Over a million lives a year are at stake.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    Just one more apostate “church” falling away in an ever-darkening world. Nothing new here. Presby churches have been splitting and decaying over all sorts of departures from the Bible for a number of years. This does not surprise me. They just want to be politically correct to try to keep the pews and the collection plates filled. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, Rev. 2:5, Rev. 3:16, Matthew 24:10-12, 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

    • Basset_Hound

      That’s the irony of it, WGC, they’re NOT. People have been deserting the PCUSA for decades for the more “orthodox” denominations such as the PCA. I was married in a PCUSA church where the pastor was bound and determined to stay in the denomination to be “salt and light” to the liberals. When we moved, I lost touch with them. I don’t know what’s happened since the pastor’s death 20 years ago.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Well put. It’s just amazing to me to see how far all of the denominations have fallen in the last 150 years. Methodists, Presbys, Reformed, Episcopalian, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. If you brought forth a faithful member from any of the Protestant denominations of 150 years ago, they would all be labeled right wing, homophobic, intolerant, bigoted extremists in today’s world. In other words, they believed the Bible as God’s Word. When I look how far Methodism has fallen from John Wesley, it just stuns me. And don’t get me started about the Episcopal “church,” which I was raised in, before its falling away. In fact, of the 3 main branches of Christianity – Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic – arguably it is Catholicism that has held the line best, poor extraneous doctrine (in my opinion) and all. They have certainly held the line quite well in terms of Sanctity of Life! Well, the church has, not necessarily the members.

        • MamaBear

          Two problems when denominations go liberal:
          1. The liberalism is brought in gradually, like the old story of the frog will jump out of a pan of hot water, but he will allow himself to be cooked alive if you heat that pan of water slowly. If you move slowly enough, people accept things they would see through and rebel against if presented all at once. Especially if you mix the liberalism with needed changes or reforms.
          2. As Basset pointed out, there are individual ministers and churches that stay in liberal denominations in hopes of being salt and light. And in their individual church, they may very well hold the line for a long time. The PCUSA church in our town had a very good minister for many years. But, a few years ago he retired. From what I hear, there have been a lot of changes since then, changes to bring them more in line with the rest of the denomination.

          • Basset_Hound

            The minister in my old church died quietly in his sleep shortly after he retired. From what I’ve seen on their web site, they did leave the denomination and joined another more conservative group. That took years to happen. They already had gone through at least one split.

  • http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com James Sundquist

    Dear Mama Bear,

    I have written two books exposing Rick Warren and devoted our website to exposing his Global Peace Plan. In spite of his supposed side of the story and his defenders, or what term you choose to use for his unholy alliance with Muslims, his own words indict him when he promotes his Global Peace Plan that he states can include Muslims, he is a collaborator to Stephen Sizer, a global enemy of Israel. He has never publicly marked Mohammad as as false prophet, and Islam as a false religion. It is a religion of the Prince of Darkness and by the Apostle John’s own definition in Scripture, a religion of the Antichrist. Islam requires a Global Caliphate the obliterates the Land of Israel, Jews and Christians. So it is impossible for Christ’s Global Peace Plan to include Muslims! If you want proof of Warren’s complicity as well as his false statements about this sales of his Purpose Driven Life book, visit: http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com