Opinion

Gee, I wonder why pro-lifers and pro-choicers don’t get along better!

In one breath, Forbes contributor Chitra Sundaram bemoans how “no real discussion occurs online or offline” when it comes to abortion policy. In the next, she unwittingly betrays her own culpability in the sad state of our national dialogue with a tirade about pro-lifers’ alleged heartlessness:

The silent masses, much as Margaret Sanger, a pioneer in Women’s reproductive rights and one of the founders of Planned Parenthood found during her travails,  remain ignored.  They live and die on the fringes of society, in pockets of dire poverty and inner city tenements, even in an ultra-rich country like ours.  Yet they might as well not exist as far as politicians, and commentators are concerned.  If poor women get pregnant, it must be because they are sluts.  And the fact that they can’t afford to have a child simply means that they shouldn’t have sex!  And the possibility that they might be living in overtly or covertly abusive situations matters little to the ideological pundit.  Finally, if the unwanted child is to be forced upon a woman or family, the State of Arizona, facing similar budget deficits to other states has cut into the very programs that might help ease the financial strain on such families.

Much could be said about how pro-choice states actually don’t do better than pro-life ones in reducing abortion rates or preventing unintended pregnancy, or which social programs actually help the needy and which ones simply waste money and foster dependence on government. Here, though, let’s focus on the author’s visceral aversion to frank discussion about sexual responsibility.

Hyperbolic “slut” descriptor aside, the underlying point – that poor women (other than rape victims) get pregnant because they knowingly chose to do something that potentially results in pregnancy – is self-evidently true, as is the commonsense advice that not having sex is the only foolproof way to avoid pregnancy. Why is it offensive to say so? Isn’t prevention a vital, legitimate part of any discussion of the troubles afflicting the poor? Most importantly, why aren’t we allowed to take into account somebody’s responsibility for creating a baby when evaluating her wish to destroy him or her?

After asserting that Margaret Sanger was actually “cautious of the indiscriminate use of abortion” because she understood its “physiological and psychological affects on women and their partners,” Sundaram takes even more fatuous leaps of logic:

In a civilized society that values individual liberties, however, how can a state or federal government say that you basically have “one” chance to avoid pregnancy – through birth control?  (a right, which we might note it took almost 65 years to achieve).

Abortion doesn’t “avoid” pregnancy; it ends it by killing a mother’s baby. And therein lies the problem – it’s not that pro-lifers are trying to give women as few reproductive choices as possible; it’s that one particular choice in dispute is unacceptable because it kills an innocent person. Like too many pro-abortion ideologues, Sundaram sustains her outrage by simply refusing to even reference why pro-lifers object.

Then again, maybe it’s for the best that she skips over the heavy lifting; in the comments, she tells someone that “how you want to define ‘human being’” is “a personal choice” (um, no) and that her basis for “choice” trumping fetuses’ right to life is that women “are contributing members of society.” Sounds like bad news for children, the severely disabled, and many of the elderly…

If however,  for any reason (error, or inefficacy) you screw up, you must be forced to have children you cannot afford?

You must be forced to bear a child (simply because we don’t have another nonlethal option), but you’re not forced to keep that child. Poor women can give their babies up for adoption, and if that’s too much trouble, most states also have safe haven laws letting women leave their newborns at hospitals, fire houses, and police stations.

It is reprehensible enough when governments like the Chinese enforce a rule of no more than one child per family.  How is it any different when a government insists that we cannot limit the size of it?

Er, maybe because in one case the government is forcing you to kill someone, and in the other the government is forcing you not to? Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

Why doesn’t abortion get the candid, productive discussion it deserves? It’s not because pro-lifers are unfeeling dogmatists. It’s because pro-choicers stigmatize the discussion of inconvenient truths, ignore us when we tell them what they pretend they want to know, and coarsen the debate with demagogic questions they already know the answers to.

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  • Ninek

    I gotta love how abortion advocates DO NOT cite links or quotes or ANY evidence that we think women who have sex are “sluts.”  They did NOT hit the jackpot with Rush Limbaugh since he is an “infotainer” and not a bona fide leader in the pro-life movement.  Not only is the inference about ‘sluts’ completely unsubstantiated, but look at how she singles out the poor, just like Sanger did in her lifetime, as being especially undeserving of bearing children.   Her rationale is negative eugenics, and proves AGAIN that pro-choicers who think that Sanger’s ideas come from a ‘different time’ are being made fools of by their fellow pro-choicers who want to combat poverty by killing off the poor.

  • Jordan Elizabeth

    “Er, maybe because in one case the government is forcing you to kill someone, and in the other the government is forcing you not to?”

    EXACTLY

  • Barb Yagley

    I cannot have an intelligent conversation with people who refer to the “in utero” children as “parasites”.  I cannot help but believe that any mother who has the attitude that her own offspring is a “parasite” is mentally disturbed and irrational.  On the few occasions where I have put an article out in the public forum, the reaction has been predictably off-topic and degenerated into personal attacks on what they thought I believed.  Pro-lifers are trying to reach the public which has not settled into rigid pro-abortion ideology.

    • Ashley

      I have eneded up in tears before. Then I get called evil, and hateful. I have a HUGE heart that breaks any time I get hatred for standing up for the weak.

  • Detroiter327

    One of the reasons that there is no meaningful discussion about abortion is that pro lifers leave condoms and birth control completely out of the debate, as you just did. Simply saying that abstinence is the only way is unrealistic, and has been proven to get us no where. Lowering the teen birth rate and in turn decreasing abortions is going to take much more then telling people not to have sex. You say that pro lifers arent trying to limit reproductive choices. Suggesting that birth control is dangerous and immoral, and encouraging people that natural family planning is the only way is doing just that. My favorite part of this opinion piece is when you discuss the BLOGS brevity and lack of detail. You work for a blogging site that routinely references other blogs and opinion pieces as scientific proof, and even you manage to link to a scientific study it is never peer reviewed or has major flaws in it. Hey pot! Meet kettle! The woman wrote a BLOG. If we were to apply actual journalistic standards to this particular piece, or to most of the opinion pieces on this site, none of it would ever see the light of day.
    Ninek- Pro life websites are full of thinly veiled rhetoric about “loose women”. If you really need proof of this Im happy to post some links, I simply suggest you look at the most recent article here where a commentor is complaining about “sexually free” women. Also, suggesting that pro choicers want to “kill off the poor” and are practicing eugenics is utterly ignorant. 

    • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

      “pro lifers leave condoms and birth control completely out of the debate, as you just did.”

      What rock have you been living under? Pro-lifers discuss condoms and BC all the time. If they were germane to the particular points of this post, I would have brought them up.

      “Simply saying that abstinence is the only way is unrealistic, and has been proven to get us no where”

      Well, then it’s a good thing that nobody says “abstinence is the only way.” What we actually say is that abstinence is the only choice that’s 100% effective. Which is true.

      “Lowering the teen birth rate and in turn decreasing abortions is going to take much more then telling people not to have sex.”

      That’s right; it’s also gonna take people choosing to be responsible, and laws forbidding abortion.

      “You say that pro lifers arent trying to limit reproductive choices. Suggesting that birth control is dangerous and immoral, and encouraging people that natural family planning is the only way is doing just that.”

      First, it’s a pretty broad generalization to say pro-lifers as a whole consider birth control generally to be “dangerous and immoral.” Second, words don’t limit people’s choices, genius – laws do.

      “My favorite part of this opinion piece is when you discuss the BLOGS brevity and lack of detail.”

      Oh, come now. Do you really expect me to believe you can’t see the difference between mere brevity and omitting THE central question about abortion in an argument about abortion?

      Better luck next time.

      • peach

         ”it’s also gonna take people choosing to be responsible”

        It’s just a fact of life that there are irresponsible people out there. Do you really want those people to be parents? Maybe we should sterilize them.

        • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

          No, but I want them to be killers even less.

      • Detroiter327

        Pro lifers never have comprehensive answers for the teen birth rate that include birth control or condoms. The author discusses how pro lifers automatically jump to abstinence only, making it a very relevant point. You say that no one advocates abstinence to be the only way. When I see any major pro life figurehead or website include bc or condoms in realistic answers to reducing the amount of teen or unwanted pregnancies I will eat my words. Perhaps not all who consider themselves anti abortion consider bc to be immoral or condoms to be ineffective. A quick skim of any major pro life website will show a very vocal majority of the movement does. 
        This woman was writing a blog venting frustration, and then musing on issues and some of the hypocritical issues she sees. She was in no way attempting an in depth analysis of major abortion issues. Again lets emphasis blog here. If youd like to apply some semblance or journalistic standards to blog (something I think the world is in dire need of) I suggest you start with your own website. Lastly you say better luck next time. Considering you cannot realize you validated some my (and the authors) points, I think your the one who needs the luck. 

        • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

          Then you must not be reading many pro-lifers. We discuss birth control all the time; you’re simply not satisfied with how we discuss it because (a) we won’t surrender to your attempts to conflate legal availability with active promotion, and (b) we insist on pointing out BC’s imperfections, the responsibility aspect you guys always hate discussing, and the studies that contradict your narrative on abstinence education.

          And if you still insist that the author’s decision to ignore the 800-lb. elephant in the room that she knows would have answered half her questions is the same thing as simply not being “in depth,” then there’s nothing anyone else could say that would get you to admit it. Suffice it to say, I’ll put my and Live Action’s journalistic standards up against Chitra Sundaram’s and yours any day of the week.

        • MoonChild02

          Get ready to eat those words:
          Pregnant Women Support Act (95-10) by Democrats For Life
          Press Release for Grow Your Knowledge by Secular Pro-Life

        • PointeforJesus

          I think that part of it is what kind of birth control you use. There are kinds that prevent ovulation, and thereee are kinds that prevent implantation in the uterus. The one that prevents implantation is an abortifacient, because implantation comes after conception. It’s also not 100% foolproof.
          The one that prevents ovulation is also not 100% foolproof, but it prevents works more of the time, and it prevents conception. There is therefore no extinguishing of life. My mother is massively pro-life, but she used this one because it doesn’t kill anything, it prevents the life from starting.
          Condoms are even less foolproof. Depending on which one people use, it will affect their birth rate.
          It also makes a difference as to which ones prolifers will advocate. Abstinance is the only thing that is 100% foolproof, and especially if you aren’t married, is the way to go. They will not advocate condoms, because they work least well. Depending one the group, they may advocate the bc that prevents ovulation,but not the other one.

    • Elizabethschuch@gmail.com

      The article stated “ not having sex is the only foolproof way to avoid pregnancy. ”   They didn’t say there are no other options, they said foolproof.  I am a pro-life woman and my fiance plans to have a vasectomy. Because I personally know a woman who got pregnant because sperm still got through the tubes (they married and weren’t planning on a third child), I acknowledge that there is a very very slim chance that I could still get pregnant. The word “foolproof” and “avoid” (rather than kill/terminate), are key to understanding the debate. This article was about hypocrisy and errors in understanding pro-life perspective, not discussing pregnancy prevention. P.S. Just so you understand my motivations for a vasectomy, I plan to adopt and have PCOS, so that is why we are not going to try to have a biological child.

    • cropchick

      You won’t find pro-lifers pushing the pill because technically it is an abortificatient in and of itself and condoms are not 100%  There has been a lot of misrepresentation about how “safe” condoms are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000084671427 Tj Freezn

    As a pro-lifer, I get along with some pro-abortionists.
    But those are the ones who allow me to disagree with them, most don’t allow that.(mind you, many of my fellow pro-lifers don’t allow pro-abortionists to disagree with them)

  • thoughtadventure

    I find this common in a lot of conversations now days.  Someone will not simply disagree with another point of view, but rather refuse to acknowlege that the actual point of view exists, and argue with a caricature.

  • 12angry_men

    The comments I have seen from pro abortion and anti abortion people alike have made me lose some faith in humanity. People on both sides will tout what they say are “facts” to push their own agendas. I have seen this site do it, I have seen countless pro abortion sites and other pro life sites do it as well. And the sad thing is, people will believe everything they read on any of those sites without bothering to do their own research to make sure they aren’t being had. 

    • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

      Individual pro-lifers may err from time to time, but on the whole they strive for truth. The pro-choice side is fundamentally different in that lies are intertwined with its very foundations.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_MFI2DBY4KKKEWREWWMF5Z73RGI Mary

    It saddens me when people don’t even know enough biology or logic to even discuss abortion. I’ve tried being compassionate and patient but it’s like hitting your head against the wall. :(

    • Ashley

      Amen

  • Guest

    Poor women can give their babies up for adoption, and if that’s too much trouble, most states also have safe haven laws letting women leave their newborns at hospitals, fire houses, and police stations.

    Women use safe haven laws because they just couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of adoption?  I guess you don’t use the word ‘slut’ because you prefer ‘slattern.’

    • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

      Huh?

      • Guest

         A ‘slut’ is just someone with loose morals.  ‘Slatternly’ connotes laziness as well, which appears to be what you think of women who leave babies at safe havens instead of going to the bother of a formal adoption.  Unless, of course, you were referring to upstanding, virtuous women who just don’t feel like going to the of trouble of adoption.

        Suffice it to say, I’ll put my and Live Action’s journalistic standards up against Chitra Sundaram’s and yours any day of the week.

        You mean like that gem of a piece on the relative cost effectiveness of Planned Parenthood and FQHCs that LiveAction scrubbed after it was pointed out that the author was underestimating the federal funding of FQHCs by more than ten billion dollars? Right.

        • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

          Wow, you’re really grasping at straws looking for reasons to pretend to be offended if that sentence is enough to accuse me of calling women lazy…

          I didn’t see the piece you’re referring to, but frankly I’m not inclined to take your word for it.

          • Guest

            Wow, you’re really grasping at straws looking for reasons to pretend to
            be offended if that sentence is enough to accuse me of calling women
            lazy…

            Oh, I wasn’t offended.  I find your open contempt for women who choose abortion to be a refreshing change from the saccharine pretense of concern for women’s health that is normally found on this blog.  Speaking of which…

            I didn’t see the piece you’re referring to, but frankly I’m not inclined to take your word for it.

            The article was picked up by Life News before Live Action deleted it,
            and your brain trust forgot to tell them it was junk, so it’s still
            there:
            http://www.lifenews.com/2012/05/08/de-funding-planned-parenthood-helps-poor-women-get-health-care 
            (I assume that you’re not going to take my word for it that it was ever
            posted here, so read down to the bottom, where it says that the author
            writes for Live Action and “the column is reprinted by permission.”) 

            In the article, the author performs a comic ‘analysis’ showing that FQHCs (by which she means community health centers,not only FQHCs) are far more efficient than PP at providing health care for women because they see far more patients while receiving only two billion federal dollars annually, in contrast to PP’s half-billion dollars that go to a much smaller patient base.  This leads the author to conclude that defunding PP and giving the money instead to FQHCs would result in an expansion of women’s health care access, since the FQHCs would be using federal money more efficiently and could therefore serve more patients with it.

            The problem?  Although the author refers to the HRSA as the source of her information, the “two billion” dollar figure for CHCs annual income actually represents only additional funds funneled to those centers by the ACA.  If the author had read the report that was the source of the HRSA’s numbers, she would have seen that CHCs actually receive something closer to 10.25 billion in taxpayer money (not all of which is federal). So while I was misremembering when I posted that she was underestimating federal funding by ten billion dollars (it was closer to eight billion), my basic point stands: Live Action posted an utterly worthless ‘story’ which they then scrubbed when the error was pointed out.  As a result, this comment will probably also get scrubbed. 

            If not, I look forward to your face-saving alternate explanation of the numbers.

            Real statistics on community health center funding: http://www.bphc.hrsa.gov/uds/doc/2010/National_Universal.pdf

          • Guest

             Formatting problems.  Sorry.

          • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

            “open contempt for women who choose abortion”

            That was one bald-faced lie too many, Guest. You just threw away any pretense that the concepts of honesty or credibility mean anything to you.

          • Guest

             So, you’ll be ignoring the evidence of journalistic incompetence, then?  What a surprise.

          • http://twitter.com/CalFreiburger Calvin Freiburger

            No, I’ll just be ignoring someone who it’d be a waste of time to go over it with because he’s not honest.

  • AbecedariusRex

    Comment A: Margaret Sanger was a fascist.
    Comment B: When did birth control (or abortion) become a right?  Did I miss that in the constitution?  Would those be rights given by nature and nature’s god (and would that be the same god who suggested “maybe you shouldn’t, y’know, kill”?)  And if so are the inalienable like our other rights?  And if so how is it that the government has any legitimacy granting or taking them away?  And does the right to birth control and the right to terminate another life get in the way of that whole “among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” thingummy?
    Comment C: Margaret Sanger was a fascist
    Comment D: With a national government that rewards poor single moms for having more babies, wouldn’t it be smarter for poor women NOT to have abortions (but rather have the kids and pawn them off on grandma to collect the childcare and so not have to work themselves)?  Just saying.
    Comment E: Margaret Sanger was a fascist

    • Oedipa

      “Comment B: When did birth control (or abortion) become a right?”

      1965. Griswold v. Connecticut. Look it up.